JOB's children celebrating birthdays

eye 23

Hi

Can anyone give me their view on why the bible says that after Job's children celebrated 'their day' he went out and made sacrafices to god in case they had sinned and cursed god in their hearts ?

the first part is a great talking part especially regarding job being a rightous man but the latter tends to counter act it some how by impling that job thoughts were that birthdays were wrong, in gods eyes. Especially as he did this after every birthday, so I can't really debate that it was one off event that might have encured some wrong doing at one particular party........if you understand what I mean.

thanks for any iput

eye 23

TheListener

ok I'll give a reply a try. Although there are much better minds and more informed people this is the argument I have used.

I personally believe that Job's children were celebrating their birthdays. However, there is now foolproof way to prove that to a JW. The WT has a QFR on this and basically discredits the whole idea based on the fact that the word Hulledeth (sp?) doesn't precede the word yowm (sp?). Basically saying that the word "day" without the word "birth" in front of it cannot mean birthday. Looking at the context shuts that arguement down pretty well for me and apparently several other translators and bible commentators.

First, if the celebration of birthdays had been wrong or looked down upon; Job's children wouldn't have even been celebrating them. They were righteous like their father.

Second, if celebrating birthdays was wrong in some way then Job wouldn't have sacrificed in their behalf "in case one of them sinned in their heart". He would have sacrificed because they had in fact sinned by celebrating their birthday or doing wrong things at their party.

Third, the brothers were the ones who feasted on their days and the fact that they invited their daughters shows that it "most likely" (wt phrase) wasn't a drunken gluttonous crazy butt party. I forget which commentator brought this out but in fact since the sisters were invited it showed how nice everyone got along and how it was probably a nice family occcasion.

robhic

I'm certainly no bible scholar but the Job passages just tell me that there is implicit allowance for birthday celebrations. The family invited each other over to celebrate "their day" (which is fairly obvious...) and have a generally good time.

Perhaps Job was just doing a CYA in case any of his kids hadn't been as perfectly perfect as Job himself and he was putting in a good word for the great J-man to not judge his kids too harshly. And he did it on "their day" which sorta made it a present!

I quoted Job 1:4 on a card sent to my JW girlfriend with the message (it was flowers) on the card: "Have a great time on 'YOUR DAY' Job 1:4" None of her JW friends who came to visit (oh yeah, she was in the hospital at the time) made ONE SINGLE MENTION of the card, the present, birthdays or anything. I was just waiting for 'em to say something.

I amuse myself by thinking I won this round. Oh well...

Robert

inbyathread

Can't hold my tongue on this one. One more point to show that this was a birthday celebration.

The WT is very good at using two other birthday celebrations and the aftermath of those (people died) as a reason for not celebrating birthdays. OK, well let's use Job's children as the third example. What happened to Job's children? Several verses down (18) shows what happened to them. Three times for emphisis.

robhic

Also add this part:

Job 3:1

After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Job 3:2 And Job answered and said:

Job 3:3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, And the night which said, There is a man-child conceived .

Again it seems obvious that "his day" and "the day ... wherein I was born" means the same thing -- his birthday!

How can they try so desperately to deny this simple fact?

Robert

inbyathread

Thank you Thank you Thank you - robhic

We read over and over but this scripture never hit my eye this way. Great! Elders - Get Ready to Rumble!

Mulan

I asked my mother about this a few years ago when I ran across it doing some research (still a dub at the time).

She didn't bat an eyelash and said "they celebrated their birthdays..............that's pretty obvious". Of course our family always acknowledged birthdays...........no party or cake, but we did talk about it and sent cards too.

TheListener

As a footnote to my previous post. I have had this discussion with dubs, both family and not. By the end they'll agree that there probably isn't anything wrong with birthdays, but we shouldn't do it because the society says not to.

That is the final point in any successful argument with a dub. However, I feel that if you make them say that enough times on enough subjects they'll eventually be bothered by it. It makes some of them feel like robots of the society - which in fact they are.

Narkissos

Not to rain on the parade, but I believe the simplest sense of "his day" (the one to be retained according to the basics of semantics) in the present phrase and context is not "his birthday" but "his time (to host the feast)". So NRSV:

His sons used to go and hold feasts in one another's houses in turn.

Cf. French Jerusalem Bible, "à tour de rôle".

TheListener

Narkissos,

I thought the Hebrew word used was "yowm" Strong's word #3117(sp?) which means day? If that is so how can "each in turn" represent the same thought?

I found this on blueletterbible.org: Hebrew literal translation (but not backwards): "and his sons went and feasted [in their] houses every one his day - etc etc.

I guess this could mean either his appointed day or his birthday. Based on the text a Job 3:1? there doesn't seem to be a problem with the understanding that 'his day' referred to a birthday.

I am just learning how to research for real so pleeeeeease just tell me I'm right.

JOB's children celebrating birthdays

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