Can someone tell me whether a 1970s Watchtower .............

by jaffacake 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • jaffacake

    clearly stated that Christ is not the mediator for Christians today, not even Jehovah's Witnesses. But that he is only the mediator for the faithful & discreet slave class.

    It then follows that most of the Bible was not written for the rest of us who must rely on the eartly organisation as our mediator for salvation. I know this is JW teaching, but where, if anywhere, have they come out and stated this in print?

  • blondie

    w89 8/15 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers


    Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the "mediator" who "gave himself a corresponding ransom for


    The Bible contains both basic teachings and deep truths, which are solid food for study. One such study involves Jesus Christ?s role as Mediator. The apostle Paul wrote: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all?this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."?1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

    To grasp what Paul is saying, we must first appreciate that the Bible sets out two destinies for faithful humans: (1) perfect life on a restored earthly paradise and (2) life in heaven for Christ?s "little flock," numbering 144,000. (Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:10; 14:1-3) Christendom teaches that all good people go to heaven, which unscriptural position has colored the general view, so that Jesus is considered a go-between for all such people. What, though, does the Bible indicate?

    The Greek word me·si´tes, used for "mediator," means ?one who finds himself between two bodies or parties.? It was a ?many-sided technical term of Hellenistic legal language.? Professor Albrecht Oepke (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) says that me·si´tes was "one of the most varied technical terms in the vocabulary of Hellen[istic] law."

    But why does the Bible use a legal term for Jesus? mediatory role? As background, consider what Paul wrote about God?s Law given to Israel assembled before Mount Sinai: "It was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator." (Galatians 3:19, 20) That mediator was Moses. He was the intermediary agent between Jehovah and the fleshly nation of Israel. An agent for what? For establishing a covenant, or legal contract, between God and the nation.

    Does this mean that there is a specific legal sense involved in Jesus? role as Mediator? Yes. Note Paul?s comment at Hebrews 8:6. After speaking about the tabernacle and other typical representations under the Law covenant, he wrote: "Jesus has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises." The "better covenant" was the new covenant, which replaced the covenant mediated by Moses. (Hebrews 8:7-13) The new covenant was "legally established." It laid the basis for some of Christ?s followers, beginning with the apostles, to gain "entry into the holy place," heaven itself.?Hebrews 9:24; 10:16-19.

    There are other indications too of the legal nature of Jesus? role as Mediator of the "new covenant." Commenting on God?s promise at Psalm 110:4, Paul wrote: "To that extent also Jesus has become the one given in pledge [en´gy·os] of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:22) This is the only Biblical use of the word en´gy·os. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says: "The engyos guaranteed that a legal obligation would be carried out." So Jesus as Mediator of the new covenant serves as a legal pledge that "a better hope" would be realized.?Hebrews 7:19.

    Elsewhere Paul uses yet another word having a legal sense, ar·ra·bon´, translated "token." The same dictionary says: "The Gk. word arrabōn . . . is a legal concept from the language of business and trade." Note how Paul used this legal term: "He who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts." (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22) Both other occurrences of ar·ra·bon´ also deal with God?s anointing of Christians with spirit, bringing them an ?everlasting reward or inheritance in the heavens? as spirit sons of God.?2 Corinthians 5:1, 5; Ephesians 1:13, 14; see Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures.

    Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians.

    This should help us to understand 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Here the reference to "mediator" was made after the five other occurrences of the word in letters written earlier. Hence, Timothy would have understood Jesus? mediatorship to be His legal role connected with the new covenant. The Pastoral Epistles, by Dibelius and Conzelmann, acknowledges that at 1 Timothy 2:5 ?the term "mediator" has a legal significance,? and "although in this passage, in contrast to Heb 8:6, the [covenant] is not mentioned, one must nevertheless presuppose the meaning ?mediator of the covenant,? as the context shows." Professor Oepke observes that 1 Timothy 2:5 presents Jesus as "the attorney and negotiator."

    A modern-day illustration may help to clarify this, especially if you are not a spirit-anointed Christian. Think of a legal case in which an attorney is involved. His role may be not so much that of a lawyer arguing for justice as that of one who is mediating or bringing about a legal contract acceptable to and beneficial to two parties. Of course, you are not in that legal case, so in that sense he is not serving as your attorney. Yet he may be your very close friend who in other ways gives you valuable help.

    Sometimes an attorney?s work produces results that benefit many others. So it is with Jesus? legal accomplishments as Mediator of the new covenant. It produces what the Law covenant did not, a heavenly "kingdom of priests." (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9) Thereafter anointed Christians in the Kingdom will work with Jesus from heaven to bring a blessing to "all nations of the earth."?Genesis 22:18.

    The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus? services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation.?Acts 4:12; Hebrews 4:15.

    Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using "mediator" in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, "attorney") of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term. Jesus is also a corresponding ransom for all in that covenant, both Jews and Gentiles, who will receive immortal life in heaven. The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christ?s sacrifice: "He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world?s."

    Those of ?the whole world? are all who will gain eternal life in a restored earthly paradise. Millions of such approved servants of God now have that earthly hope. They view Jesus as their High Priest and King through whom they can daily gain approach to Jehovah. They rely on Jesus? ransom, which is available to them, just as it will be to men such as Abraham, David, and John the Baptizer when these are resurrected. (Matthew 20:28) Thus, Christ?s sacrifice will lead to everlasting life for all obedient mankind.


    A discussion of covenants appears in The Watchtower of February 1, 1989, pages 10-20.


    on page 31]

    Here at Mount Sinai, Moses served as mediator of the Law covenant



    Pictorial Archive (Near Eastern History) Est.

  • garybuss

    The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the 'little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. (The Watchtower April 1, 1979, p.31)

  • garybuss

    Bonus text . . . .


    WT 2/15/91 p.18:
    In a preliminary way, the great crowd have already "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God's Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God's friends. (Compare James 2:23.) During the Millennium, they will gradually "be set free from enslavement to corruption [until finally they] have the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:21.

    This is before the other sheep were eliminated as an already identified earthly class in 1995. Now, either the great crowd has to be separated from the other sheep, and if it is the great crowd has to be a heavenly class. If it is an earthly class and tied to the other sheep, it can't be identified yet.

    No Witness has even showed me the scripture that says the great crowd and the other sheep are one and the same.

  • Satanus
    The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ.

    When that new covenant ends, near the beginning of the 1000 yr reign, that would logically mean that the sins of those remaining alive do not get covered by jesus' ransom. Jesus no longer (according to the above, he never did) occupies the office of intercesor for them. Logically, they are still up the creek, condemned, lacking a sacrifice for the removal of sins.

    I believe the wt brings in the 144k in heaven to save their skins and bring them to perfection. It seems ridiculous considering that the bible says that jesus was supposed to be dying for all. Leave it to a lawyer (rutherford) to invent tortuous theology.


  • No Apologies
    No Apologies


    This is before the other sheep were eliminated as an already identified earthly class in 1995. Now, either the great crowd has to be separated from the other sheep, and if it is the great crowd has to be a heavenly class. If it is an earthly class and tied to the other sheep, it can't be identified yet.

    Can you expand on this? What changed in 1995 in regards to the other sheep?

    No Apologies

  • tijkmo


    from Readers


    Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians?

    The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.

    Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant" between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians.

    The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under "Mediator"; also God?s "Eternal Purpose" Now Triumphing for Man?s Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading "Leading the Way to a New Covenant"; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading "The New Covenant

    wt april 1, 1979 p 31

    november 15 1979 wt has an in depth discussion which i can pm to you if you is 8 pages long.these are the articles that ray franz discusses in c.o.c.
  • garybuss

    As of 1995 the other sheep are not going to be identified until after Armageddon starts.

    *** w95 10/15 p. 19 How Will You Stand Before the Judgment Seat? ***4 We have long felt that the parable depicted Jesus? sitting down as King in 1914 and since then making judgments?everlasting life for people proving to be like sheep, permanent death for the goats. But a reconsideration of the parable points to an adjusted understanding of its timing and what it illustrates. This refinement reinforces the importance of our preaching work and the significance of people?s response. To see the basis for this deeper understanding of the parable, let us consider what the Bible shows about Jehovah and Jesus, both as Kings and as Judges.

    *** w95 10/15 How Will You Stand Before the Judgment Seat? ***

    22 Does this parable apply when Jesus sat down in kingly power in 1914, as we have long understood? Well, Matthew 25:34 does speak of him as King, so the parable logically finds application since Jesus became King in 1914. But what judging did he do soon thereafter? It was not a judging of ?all the nations.? Rather, he turned his attention to those claiming to make up ?the house of God.? (1 Peter 4:17) In line with Malachi 3:1-3, Jesus, as Jehovah?s messenger, judicially inspected the anointed Christians remaining on earth. It was also time for judicial sentence on Christendom, who falsely claimed to be ?the house of God.? (Revelation 17:1, 2; 18:4-8) Yet nothing indicates that at that time, or for that matter since, Jesus sat to judge people of all the nations finally as sheep or goats.

    23 If we analyze Jesus? activity in the parable, we observe him finally judging all the nations. The parable does not show that such judging would continue over an extended period of many years, as if every person dying during these past decades were judged worthy of everlasting death or everlasting life. It seems that the majority who have died in recent decades have gone to mankind?s common grave. (Revelation 6:8; 20:13) The parable, though, depicts the time when Jesus judges the people of ?all the nations? who are then alive and facing the execution of his judicial sentence.

    24 In other words, the parable points to the future when the Son of man will come in his glory. He will sit down to judge people then living. His judgment will be based on what they have manifested themselves to be. At that time ?the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one? will have been clearly established. (Malachi 3:18) The actual pronouncing and executing of judgment will be carried out in a limited time. Jesus will render just decisions based on what has become evident about individuals.?See also 2 Corinthians 5:10.

    25 This means, then, that Jesus? ?sitting down on his glorious throne? for judgment, mentioned at Matthew 25:31, applies to the future point when this powerful King will sit down to pronounce and execute judgment on the nations. Yes, the judgment scene that involves Jesus at Matthew 25:31-33, 46 is comparable to the scene in Daniel chapter 7, where the reigning King, the Ancient of Days, sat down to carry out his role as Judge.

    26 Understanding the parable of the sheep and the goats in this way indicates that the rendering of judgment on the sheep and the goats is future. It will take place after ?the tribulation? mentioned at Matthew 24:29, 30 breaks out and the Son of man ?arrives in his glory.? (Compare Mark 13:24-26.) Then, with the entire wicked system at its end, Jesus will hold court and render and execute judgment.?John 5:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

    27 This clarifies our understanding of the timing of Jesus? parable, which shows when the sheep and the goats will be judged. But how does it affect us who are zealously preaching the Kingdom good news? (Matthew 24:14) Does it make our work less significant, or does it bring a greater weight of responsibility? Let us see in the next article how we are affected.

    *** w95 10/15 p. 26 What Future for the Sheep and the Goats? ***
    15 How have Christ?s brothers and the millions of other sheep united with them as one flock been treated? Many people may not personally have attacked Christ?s representatives, but neither have they treated his people lovingly. Preferring the wicked world, goatlike ones reject the Kingdom message, whether hearing it directly or indirectly. (1 John 2:15-17) Of course, in the final analysis, Jesus is the one who is appointed to render judgment. It is not for us to determine who are sheep and who are goats.

  • garybuss

    I think a biggest change in Witness doctrine in my life was when they quit saying the world had already ended and the we had been in the tribulation since the 1910's.

    Now they say the world has not yet ended and the tribulation is yet to come.

    It seems to me like we're going backwards.

    Applying to that "remnant" Job's question,
    "Why died I not from the womb? . . .
    then had I been at rest" (Job 3 : 11-13),
    God's own word by Christ Jesus answers,
    that "for the elect's sake" the days of tribulation
    were shortened by stopping the World
    War in 1918, and those of the remnant were
    spared from death that they might be a
    "people for God's name" .

    The New World
    WTBTS 1942 p. 221

    and will take in all nations . While present on
    the throne of his glory, as Jehovah's represent-
    ative at the temple, Christ Jesus separates the
    people into two classes, called sheep and goats.
    That separation is now going on, though many
    are not aware of it . Their attitude toward Jehovah's
    witnesses and the message of his Theocratic
    government reveals their attitude toward
    the King . The persecutors, opposers, and indifferent,
    who identify themselves as goats, are
    doomed to a destruction that will last forever ;
    whereas the meek, righteously disposed persons
    of good-will toward the Lord, his "sheep",
    are in line for life eternal .

    "LET GOD BE TRUE" WTBTS 1946 p. 193-4

  • No Apologies
    No Apologies


    I still don't see any change re the other sheep... just the timing of the separating of the sheep and the goat. My understanding is that the 'other sheep' is the group of 'honest-hearted ones' who began to be gathered around 1935 and who would see the great tribulation.

    *** w95 10/15 p. 26 What Future for the Sheep and the Goats? ***
    15 How have Christ?s brothers and the millions of other sheep united with them as one flock been eated?

    So they still refer to this group as the other sheep.

    What's interesting is that the Society claimed that the great crowd did not begin to be gathered too soon, that some of the original members of the great crowd would be around to see the the great tribulation. This was in one of the pocket-sized books from the late eighties... don't have it on hand. So again, another date that is an albatross around the Society's neck.

    No Apologies

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