by JEMIMAH 36 Replies latest jw friends
Ustabee,
You are right on when you said the df'd person has to grovel. I endured the sneering looks of the PO every time I stepped foot in the KH. He pretty much refused to get me a KM even tho I was told @ m DFing, "you are entitled to all the publications as any other publisher."
I never got to the point of groveling for a hearing-I left after a year of attending meetings while DF'd.
Boozy
"free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I'm free at last."
Hi, Jemimah!
We seem to peer through the same eyes.
I think we agree there is a scriptural basis for a congregation of Christians to sometimes initiate shunning of “brothers.” This calls for judicial action, though maybe not the same as promoted by the WTS. It is entirely reasonable for a congregation to set rules and enforce those rules. But this is an internal concern and it should not interfere with external needs that are legitimate ones, like helping protect an entire community from a child abuser.
Your observation that JW judicial committees sometimes act with inappropriate biases is also mine, and I think others here too. These biases are of all types, and, as you say, they end with injustice. I don’t see any change in this among JWs until one of at least two things change. Either the WTS must allow an accused party to have third party observers to witness proceedings or else the entire judicial process must be scrapped and completely revamped—if at all. At least this would minimize biased decisions and make sure decisions are according to internal rules. But then we get to the problem of whether internal rules are fair ones, including making those rules FULLY known to new ones before baptism, the turn-key event—I don’t see this ever happening. This makes me favor scraping and revamping.
I like the idea of additional layers of protection from predators. If an organization provides this protection in addition to secular protections then I see no problem with it as long as it meets the test of reasonable jurisprudence. Some will also want moral discrimination. I see no problem with this either, as long as it does not imposed life threatening results on anyone AND as long as EVERYONE knows the rules in ADVANCE.
Right now the JW system does not always provide additional layers of protection because it does not always encourage reporting of violent crime to other authorities. It encourages reporting of suspected rape and murder, but not suspected sexual molestation of a child. Also the present JW system has led many times to life threatening results—like severe depression and anxiety. These results are sometimes caused by a person’s own convictions of right and wrong, but not always. Often they are caused by harsh chastisement at the hands of would-be-comforters also acting as judges on a judicial committee.
As an elder I have witnessed these things first hand. I too have experience in the arena of appeals and special committees. They all have the same flaws. The controlling system is where the problem is, not its levels of critique.
Dear Silentlambs,
Most people seem to appreciate your work. I certainly do.
It is good you have an opportunity to voice your views. Why should we chastise someone else for doing the same thing? I can see rebuking dishonesty or criminal behavior, but hurling insults without SURE evidence of either is a bit too much for these eyes. If anyone here wants to share more than they have, fine, let them. Do we know the other person’s circumstances better than they do? Maybe they are doing all they can do. If you can do more, fine. Do more.
Since 1989 I've attended a Christian church with 4,000 members. In that time there as been ONE (1) example of church discipline. This involved a man who was cheating on his wife with multiple partners and simply refused to stop. What was his discipline? Four thousand of us got on our knees (the only time I've seen this done) and prayed for him to see a need to repent. It was the last any of us ever heard of the matter. Either he repented and got counseling, or stopped going to church. Either way solved the matter and certainly none of were told to stop talking to the individual.
I'm not saying no one in my church sins, that would be foolish. The difference is how we handle it. We have a large staff of trained counselors and some one who needs help is encouraged to get it. I know from personal experience that the counsel given is given in love and not harshness.
What a difference.
I think the judicial system is inextricably part of the WT hierarchy, from elders up to the Watchtower directors. Without the executive powers of DF, DA, and shunning, the organisation could not maintain 'unity'. So as the organisation has grown, centralised control could only be maintained by intensifying these powers.
Why is interfering with the Royal Mail such a serious crime in Britain and other countries? Vandalising a post box is not viewed at law as vandalism but something closer to sedition. It's about the necessity for keeping control. So too with the WTBTS.
I can see judicial policies relaxing only if there are large decreases in WT membership.
philo
Tina says it all..
umm, mr bowen, what the hell are you going on about?
jemimah already explained about the KMS part he was assigned and promised to upload the text when he received it. your soapbox ranting is not doing anything to help your cause.
mox
Jemimah,
I see the wheels turning, and I understand ....
An old hand at sitting on special committees, I can tell you that thoughtful men at some point ponder what role Holy Spirit plays in what almost by definition are travesties of justice. One either becomes inured, calloused to the system, or ripped open inside with the reality we are enacting some medieval morality play. Through the years, sensitive and thoughtful men start to duck being a part of judicial proceedings. Keep yourself tender, Jem.
We all hope the new Flock book will revamp the system rather than add to accreted policy. Otherwise the org will continue to reap negative consequences. In my experience it is extremely difficult for anyone who has associated for a very long time to think in terms of anything other than organization/organization/organization. We see all Scripture through that filter, and even scriptures that apply just to individuals become hugely distorted.
Others have posted most thoughtfully and I would belabor the point with any further expression. I would like to address one issue.
It's easy to crow about JW "higher standards" of behavior in keeping the organization clean. I've seen many posts stating JWs are no different than Catholics, Episcopalians, Presbyterians and the like when it comes to protecting child abusers. That's simply not true. (Adventists have real problems, but that's another story.)
It may shock you to learn that Babylon the Great has some very enlightened approaches. I don't have the time to produce an essay on the subject, but I'd like to cite a point or two from a short manual used globally used by one of the groups cited above. It's for those who do any lay teaching or have interaction with small groups within the church. Note the emphasis on individual responsibility.
While you read it, imagine: Babylon the Great insisting on high moral ethics, individual "Christian" behavior ...
Two guidelines are given: First, ANY complaint must be taken seriously and dealt with promptly, even from a child. The second is that the leader and the group must not get caught up in keeping secrets or rigid procedure.
"Most sexual misconduct becomes seriously harmful when the person receiving unwanted attention or abuse is ignored and when the behavior is kept secret. It is important for us, as Christians, to find ways to confront sexual misconduct and abuse in ways that quickly and firmly say, 'No, this behavior is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.'
"The Christian community must provide clear boundaries and enforce them. ('We are going to notify and cooperate fully with the authorities and seek professional guidance in the matter.')"
"These situations are not opportunities to become moralistic .... Excessive moralistic 'preaching' often drives the perpetrator into deeper denial, away from accepting responsibility for his or her action and even away from the community in which they can be held accountable."
Psychopaths/sociopaths are differentiated from "recovering" pedophiles, and even this former category is considered to have need to be "in a covenanted relationship with members of the larger community who will help them control their behaviors."
"The community has to make sure that the individual with uncontrollable behaviors (e.g., having sex with children/youth) always has someone with him or her while in the community, and that a significant number of people are able to be consistent in being absolutely honest with the person about his or her behavior. Recovering pedophiles need a 'buddy system' to function appropriately in the community and to enable the community to be comfortable with and accepting of the person."
"There is a danger of subtly pressuring the injured person to be reconciled to the offender because it makes everyone feel better. The injured person determines what he or she needs to heal and when she or he is ready for reconciliation. "
The community must support the injured person in their healing; expect confession, making amends, and "amendment of life" of the offender; and develop ways of enabling the reconciliation of all persons involved.
"The process needs to be open, honest, and loving, and yet very serious. It will take time and tears and be painful. But it can be both healing for the community and individuals and also helpful for others to see how they too can acknowledge their sins, make amends, seek amendment of life."
Latter defined as seeking therapy on one's own, joining self-help group; taking medication; removing self from situations such as touching or holding children, change jobs, change lifestyles, whatever it takes.
"Feel the guilt and sorrow that comes with seeing the pain you have caused; accept responsibility for your actions."
"The ministry of reconcilation, which has been committed by Christ to his Church, is exercised through the care each Christian has for others."
What do you think?
Maximus
ustabee sed:
And have them ignore you like you were an invisible ghost.
When I was DFed and sitting in the hall between my ex-husband an ex-mother-in-law, an unbalanced sister (another one!) leaned over between talks and said to my ex, "Tell Reagan we miss her."
Um, hello, dumbass, I'm, sitting RIGHT HERE!!!
How stupid this is. I can't believe I submitted myself to this moronic suffering for a year and a half...
Reagan
I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul.
My experience with serving on committees is this:
Most brothers simply form a 'gut' reaction to whatever
situation is presented before them and then go with it.
Asking them to serve without bias is like asking water not to be wet.
Whatever rules or scriptural principles exist are simply ignored,
'bent' or re-interpreted to fit whatever outcome is desired.
Don't think there aren't brothers eager to df. There are - and
they used to get frustrated with me ( "just df 'em and go home")
metatron
If disfellowshipping is the answer, then we need to re-examine the question...not to mention our own hears.
Francois
Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.
