Physics Challenge! Explain "entangled particles" to me

by AlmostAtheist 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • iggy_the_fish
    iggy_the_fish

    Hi Frankie, no I've not come across that book. The last one on this sort of subject I read was on superstrings, called (searches through crap on floor..... there!) The Elegant Universe, which had a pretty good stab at giving reasons for why it's so hard to get relativity and quantum physics together in a single theory.

    I've just had a look at some stuff on Bell's theorem (god bless google!) and it's surely very interesting stuff. It's certainly an interesting question - if physics is inherently non-local, what makes me think I'm here and you're over there?

    ig. (over here)

  • jeanniebeanz
    jeanniebeanz

    *peeks in*

    My Goodness! The size of craniums in here is just amazing! Can I watch you all flex your brains? Please?

    J

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    The size of craniums in here is just amazing!

    I know what you mean! Mine gets smaller every time someone posts as I come to realize that I not only don't know much, but what I know is wrong!

  • iggy_the_fish
    iggy_the_fish

    Well, I don't know about having a large cranium, but being interested in physics don't get you no women at parties!

    ig (of the "tell 'em you're interested in physics and watch 'em run" class)

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    Well, I don't know about having a large cranium, but being interested in physics don't get you no women at parties!

    Dude, I think the alien-fish suit might have something to do with it, too. ;-)

  • IT Support
    IT Support

    I found this site well written (even though I still got lost after a few minutes!):

    http://particleadventure.org/particleadventure/

  • Gedanken
    Gedanken

    AA, That's an excellent question and if the particles were, say, "red" or "blue" then you would be correct. What makes it intresting is that unlike colors which don't change, spins can change. Please consider the following; Imagine Each particle has a spin which can take one of two values, let's say +1 or -1 (for electrons it's actually +/- 1/2 but it makes no real difference). Now, here's the twist, the spin is defined with respect to some coordinate system, let's say x, y, z. So you can measure the z-component of spin, or the x-componet or the y-component, whatever you like. Think of it like a ball spinning around a particular direction in space (again, this is a simplification but it's ok for the discussion). Now a funny thing about QM is that you can't know all three spins at once, you can only know one of them. So, let's say you measure the z-component and get +1. What value would you get had you measured the x-component? You have no idea execpt that you would get either + or - 1. It can eb either but you don't know which you will get until you mak eteh measurement. 50% of the time you get +1 and 50% -1. It's the same for all directions. Now imagine you make 2 measurements and get z-component: +1 x-componnet: -1 now you measure the z-component again, what do you get? You might think it would still be +1 - just like if you "measure" a ball's color to be red, then weigh the ball, you don't expect it's color to change to green. But when you measure the z-component again you get + or - 1 but which one you don't know until you've measured it. So you could get; z-component: +1 x-component: -1 z-component: -1 So spin isn't like color that is fixed. The actual spin you measure isn't known until you measure it. Now, if you **always** measure the z-component you always get the same result as the first time you measured it, but if you measure x or y in between then that disrupts the z-measurement. So this demonstrates that particles don't have known spins until they are measured. You only need one particle to prove this. Now consider two particles; Imagine that you and AlanF go to opposite sides of town but have secretly agreed ahead of time that you will measure the spins of particles that pass you by, but that each time you will measure a different spin component. You decide on the order z,y,x,x,z etc. Also you decide that you will go first. Obviously the particles don't know what you agreed. They have no idea whihc component you will measure first and, if you believe the above, they can't have pre-assigned values for all three components. So, two particles arrive, one at you and one at alanf. Now you know that whichever spin component you measure you will get +/-1 but you also know that you can't know all three spin components at the same time. So it's not like the particles have pre-assigned values for x, y, and z components - that is, it's not like they have special colors. Now, being a sneaky bastard you decide to measure the x-component first and not the z-component as you agreed and you get +1. AlanF being equally sneaky also decides to cheat and has also by luck, measured the x-component. He gets -1. Had he measured teh x-component as agreed he'd have got +/-1. Now imagine this, the next two particles coming flying out and unbeknownst to you someone between you and the origin measures the z component of spin and gets -1 for your particle. Then you measure the x-component and get +1. Then AlanF measures the x component - he can now get +/-1 so he might also get +1. The entanglement was broken by the intruder's measurement. When you compare notes you can tell in thi scase that someone broke the entanglement. Of course, if AlanF had got -1 (which he would 50% of the time) you couldn't have told. So you need to look at the statistics not at any single measurement to detect the intruder. With the ball analogy if an intruder had a glimspe of yoru ball then that wouldn't have altered it's color. This is a tricky subject and I hope this helps a bit

  • Gedanken
    Gedanken

    AA,

    That's an excellent question and if the particles were, say, "red" or "blue" then you would be correct. What makes it intresting is that unlike colors which don't change, spins can change. Please consider the following;

    Imagine Each particle has a spin which can take one of two values, let's say +1 or -1 (for electrons it's actually +/- 1/2 but it makes no real difference).

    Now, here's the twist, the spin is defined with respect to some coordinate system, let's say x, y, z. So you can measure the z-component of spin, or the x-componet or the y-component, whatever you like. Think of it like a ball spinning around a particular direction in space (again, this is a simplification but it's ok for the discussion). Now a funny thing about QM is that you can't know all three spins at once, you can only know one of them. So, let's say you measure the z-component and get +1. What value would you get had you measured the x-component? You have no idea execpt that you would get either + or - 1. It can eb either but you don't know which you will get until you mak eteh measurement. 50% of the time you get +1 and 50% -1. It's the same for all directions.

    Now imagine you make 2 measurements and get

    z-component: +1

    x-componnet: -1

    now you measure the z-component again, what do you get? You might think it would still be +1 - just like if you "measure" a ball's color to be red, then weigh the ball, you don't expect it's color to change to green. But when you measure the z-component again you get + or - 1 but which one you don't know until you've measured it. So you could get;

    z-component: +1

    x-component: -1

    z-component: -1 So spin isn't like color that is fixed. The actual spin you measure isn't known until you measure it. Now, if you **always** measure the z-component you always get the same result as the first time you measured it, but if you measure x or y in between then that disrupts the z-measurement.

    So this demonstrates that particles don't have known spins until they are measured. You only need one particle to prove this. Now consider two particles;

    Imagine that you and AlanF go to opposite sides of town but have secretly agreed ahead of time that you will measure the spins of particles that pass you by, but that each time you will measure a different spin component. You decide on the order z,y,x,x,z etc. Also you decide that you will go first.

    Obviously the particles don't know what you agreed. They have no idea whihc component you will measure first and, if you believe the above, they can't have pre-assigned values for all three components.

    So, two particles arrive, one at you and one at alanf. Now you know that whichever spin component you measure you will get +/-1 but you also know that you can't know all three spin components at the same time. So it's not like the particles have pre-assigned values for x, y, and z components - that is, it's not like they have special colors.

    Now, being a sneaky bastard you decide to measure the x-component first and not the z-component as you agreed and you get +1. AlanF being equally sneaky also decides to cheat and has also by luck, measured the x-component. He gets -1. Had he measured teh x-component as agreed he'd have got +/-1.

    Now imagine this, the next two particles coming flying out and unbeknownst to you someone between you and the origin measures the z component of spin and gets -1 for your particle. Then you measure the x-component and get +1. Then AlanF measures the x component - he can now get +/-1 so he might also get +1. The entanglement was broken by the intruder's measurement. When you compare notes you can tell in thi scase that someone broke the entanglement. Of course, if AlanF had got -1 (which he would 50% of the time) you couldn't have told. So you need to look at the statistics not at any single measurement to detect the intruder.

    With the ball analogy if an intruder had a glimspe of yoru ball then that wouldn't have altered it's color.

    This is a tricky subject and I hope this helps a bit

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Very interesting stuff, but mind-boggling to try and grasp. I have only one piece of advice:

    Knowing, Maybe- by Earl Pommerance of Toronto, Canada circa 1973

    You know, when I was a kid, I knew a lot of things. And what I know now, I know that what I knew as a kid, I really didn't know; although I didn't know then that I'd know that now.

    Of course, all this might change. Someday I might know that what I know now about what I knew then, which I now think I do, I really didn't know, and what I knew as a kid, I really did know. So the future might prove the present wrong and the past right, whereas the past is proving the future right which makes the present wrong. So who do you believe? Not me!.......

    Rod P.

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul
    Terry: Or, to put my point simply: what a thing is.....is according to its nature. We are the ones insisting that the nature MEANS this and that in order to fit it into an overall pattern. That pattern is often (mostly?) (always?) an artificial construct for the purpose of understanding it.

    I am NOT saying what Immanuel Kant said. Nature is not impossible for us to understand because it can be misunderstood. We must simply take care to wipe the equations already on the blackboard off before we begin the new set of numbers.

    I'm not even sure I've made any point now that I re-read the above. Try this: When we disturb the nature of anything in order to discover what it MIGHT BE we risk only seeing what it has become now that it is disturbed and then extrapolating and imputing MEANING.

    Terry,

    In my opinion, this is one of the best thoughts I have read since starting to post here. I believe I have gotten your point and if so I agree completely.

    Our "understanding of reality" is sourced in inductive and deductive conclusions reached from what really amounts to nothing more than a mass of abstraction and arbitrary assignation of meaning to concepts and relationships based on observed reality, which can only be obtained by disturbing the nature of the observed (or sensed). We therefore can confidently conclude that our "understanding of reality" is fundamentally very wrong, even though we may not be able to state exactly how and where it errs.

    When Dave, myself, and others have trouble wrapping our brains around newly "understood" realities it is always rooted in our difficulty getting rid of this mass of unfounded "realities" that we have saddled our conscious minds with, through little fault of our own. In seeking to make the universe make sense, we try to force it into a box too small. We end up limiting ourselves in our ability to comprehend it.

    Respectfully,
    OldSoul

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