Why were apocalyptic books included in the NT canon?

by logansrun 23 Replies latest jw friends

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  logansrun

  All right folks -- especially you scholarly ones -- let me state a question I've been having:

  From my understanding of Christian history the proto-Catholic Church selected the books to be included in the NT canon after the first century was concluded (NT canon finalized in mid 2nd century?). Included in this canon were books which include some apocalyptic sayings of Jesus (especially in Mark) that obviously were not fulfilled, such as Mark 9:1 "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." and Matthew 24:34, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place." There are myriad other references which allude to the apocalypse taking place within the lifetime of Jesus followers (for example, 1 Thessalonians).

  Why would the bishops canonize books which contained obvious false prophecies? By the time of canonization the generation that Jesus preached would not pass away did pass away. Why include these books and sayings?

  Just curious,

  B.
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  Leolaia

  Good question. I would guess that the apostolic authority of the books, such as the Pauline authorship of 1 Thessalonians or the attribution to "Levi Matthew" of Matthew (and the Petrine authority of Mark, etc.) was too great to permit their exclusion, but interestingly the passages were not excised either (tho it would be interesting to check the manuscript evidence).

  The canonization process occurred largely after the initial parousia eschatology had waned in the church and when theology more and more drew on Johannine realized eschatology. Paul also had an inaugurated eschatology which still looked ahead to the future completion of things but which approached church matters as if the future things were already happening in the present. I would suspect that such passages could have been explained away when interpreted in light of John (cf. John 8:51, "If anyone keeps my word, he will not see death", 11:26, "Whoever lives and believes in me will never die").

  It would be interesting to read the actual interpretations of the passages you cited in the works of the pre-Nicene fathers. That would go part of the way in answering your question.
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  the_classicist

  From my understanding of Christian history the proto-Catholic Church selected the books to be included in the NT canon after the first century was concluded (NT canon finalized in mid 2nd century?). Included in this canon were books which include some apocalyptic sayings of Jesus (especially in Mark) that obviously were not fulfilled, such as Mark 9:1 "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." and Matthew 24:34, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place." There are myriad other references which allude to the apocalypse taking place within the lifetime of Jesus followers (for example, 1 Thessalonians).

  Early bishops, such as Augustine, viewed the kingdom of God coming with power to be the Church itself. The Church is the kingdom of God. Though, certainly, many thought it signified an immediate parousia.

  For Matt. 24:34, this is what some notes in one of my bibles read: "The difficulty raised by this verse cannot be satisfactorily removed by the supposition that this generation means the Jewish people throughout the course of their history, much less the entire human race. Perhaps for Matthew, it means the generation to which he and his community belonged."

  Other people think that the apocalyptic passage in Matthew is referring to the Fall of Jerusalem, but in prophetic language common to the OT. There are also many other interpretations.

  It's interesting to notice, though, that Jesus' words were frequently misinterpreted by the early Christians regarding the prophecies, especially when this is viewed in light of the post-resurrection passage in John.
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  Amazing1914

  Hi Brad,
  

  The verses in Matt. 24 are contextually applied to the generation that does see the end time commence.

  I will look up Mark 9:1, but I believe that there are some good commentary on this, such as Matthew Henry Commentary.

  Btw: How did your relatives party go? Did the elders try to bug you, or leave you alone?

  Jim W.

  PS: The modern Bible Canon was really decided by the Catholic Church and took a lot of time to settle. They had arguments about the book of James and Revelation. The book History of Christianity by Paul Johnson gives excellent insight on early church and biblical development.
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  Leolaia

  Early bishops, such as Augustine, viewed the kingdom of God coming with power to be the Church itself. The Church is the kingdom of God. Though, certainly, many thought it signified an immediate parousia.

  Augustine certainly had this idea worked out (cf. De Civitate Dei), but being a post-Nicene father (AD 354-430) I would not exactly refer to him as "early". The idea is found in various forms in second and third century orthodoxy, and its roots penetrate into the NT, but even if the ekklesia is to be identified with the kingdom, there is still frequently a distinction between the present state of the church (as "hidden" to the world, etc.) and the future revealing of kingdom to all and final judgment, the defeat of the Rome (as Revelation proclaimed), and the resurrection of the dead. It many quarters (which fully accepted the authority of Paul and the gospels), there was still a two-stage eschatology with a final eschaton expected, tho the sociopolitical changes wrought by Constantine facilitated to some extent the logic of Augustine's views.
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  Mary

  the proto-Catholic Church selected the books to be included in the NT canon after the first century was concluded (NT canon finalized in mid 2nd century?). Included in this canon were books which include some apocalyptic sayings of Jesus (especially in Mark) that obviously were not fulfilled, such as Mark 9:1 "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power

  Ok, I'll take a stab at this as I often wondered the same thing. The verse you quoted above is cross-referenced with Matthew 16:28 where Jesus said the same thing. In the very next chapter (17) vs.1, Jesus takes them up to the mountain and is transfigured before their eyes. It's my opinion that He was giving them a glimpse as to how he would "come in power" at the Second Coming. Doesn't Matthew 24 say that He would return with power "and great glory"? The Transfiguration showed them what it would be like. I'm not saying this is gospel truth---just my opinion on the matter.

  *** Rbi8 Matthew 16:28-17:3 ***

  28 Truly I say to YOU that there are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 17 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John his brother along and brought them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. 3 And, look! there appeared to them Moses and E·li´jah, conversing with him.

  and Matthew 24:34, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place."

  Again, he could have been referring to the destruction of Jerusalem which many of them did witness.

  Why would the bishops canonize books which contained obvious false prophecies?

  Because they probably didn't view them as false prophecies......back then, to question anything that Jesus might have said would probably have been considered blasphemous. Actually, I just wrote my final exam on the New Testament. The canonization actually went back and forth for about 300 years until it was decided on in 327 CE. The Book of Revelation, for obvious reasons, almost never made it in to the canon as many thought it was too bizarre and too frightening to put in. Ah, just think: the world almost never knew about the Proclamations sent out at the assembly in Cedar Point, Ohio in the 1920s.......
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  Leolaia

  I have heard the Transfiguration theory by various conservative interpreters, but it is clearly wrong. The prediction in Matthew 16:28 (= Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27) is part of the Son of Man eschatology influenced by 1 Enoch 1:9 which expects a future epiphany of God or his divine agent accompanied by his angels to execute judgment on the earth, giving everlasting glory to the righteous and everlasting punishment to the wicked. See Jude 14-15 which quotes 1 Enoch 1:9 ("Behold, he comes with the myriads of his holy ones to execute judgment on all"), 1 Thessalonians 3:13 ("May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy (e.g. being judged holy) in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones"), Matthew 25:31-46 ("When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them" in judgment, giving some of them the kingdom and others eternal punishment).
  

  That Matthew 16:28 belongs to this apocalyptic tradition is indicated by the preceding verse:
  

  "For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:27-28).

  The reference here is to the judgment of "every man" occurring when the Son of Man comes, and it is this event that will happen before those standing in Jesus' presence would taste death. This is the same event discussed in Matthew 25:31-46, which in the narrative of the gospel is uttered in the Olivet discourse after the Transfiguration, and which refers to a still future judgment of the world. At Jesus' trial, he similarly tells those present: "In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (26:64). This is essentially the same prediction in 16:28, that Jesus is telling those judging him that they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven (e.g. to execute judgment on THEM). The Olivet discourse itself has another prediction similar to 16:28 which also follows a description of the coming of the Son of Man in judgment:
  

  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out all his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another....Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place" (Matthew 24:29-34).

  In v. 34 is a prediction just like that of 16:28, and again it refers not to a past event (e.g. the Transfiguration) but to the future coming of the Son of Man in judgment and glory. The language used is the same: the Son of Man, coming in glory, accompanied with the angels. Compare also with Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him". Note that in Matthew 24:34 the reference is to "ALL THESE THINGS" as having occurred, which include not just the destruction of Jerusalem but also the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven to gather the elect into his presence.

  The Transfiguration theory ignores the crucial fact, that the coming of the Son of Man in glory is a reference to the final eschatological judgment of the world.

  Moreover, there are other passages in Matthew that imply that this coming of the Son of Man will occur within the generation of those who saw Jesus. Cf. Matthew 10:23: "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes".
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  Mary

  But couldn't the Transfiguration have been "a sneak preview" of His Return that He was showing them?
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  Narkissos

  Back to Logansrun's question, I'd say the canonical decisions were not made out of thin air by a central Politburo or a "committee of independent theological experts"; they rather sanctioned a general consensus involving all the significant segments of the Catholic (= "universal") Church. For obvious political reasons (in terms of inner power struggle between churches), it was just impossible to plainly reject a book which was regarded as apostolic in an important group of churches (such as the Johannine writings in Asia Minor, Matthew in Syria, etc.)

  However, some theological editing did occur. But the common practice (both in Judaism and Christianity) was that of censorship by addition. Iow, nobody would dare delete the already too well-known embarrassing passages, but rather add something which would put them in a more acceptable perspective. For instance, the extant conclusion of Matthew ("I am with you always, to the end of the age") clearly tones down all the short-term announcements of the parousia which occur in the Gospel (10:23; 16:28; 24:34). Perhaps the sequence of Matthew 16:28 and the Transfiguration reflects a similar practice at an early stage. Also note that the presence of Elijah on the Mountain somehow conflicts the other interpretations that identify him with John the Baptist or Jesus himself (if Elijah comes personally to Jesus on the mountain, his "coming" doesn't need to be identified with the ministry of a contemporary prophet, so one can doubt the original author of the latter sayings knew of the Transfiguration story as we know it).
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  jaffacake

  I'm fascinated by this discussion.

  Is the concensus on this board that this was a no show in the Apostolic generation rendering Scriptures erroneous?

  Is there an 'orthodox' Christian view on this?

  What is latest Watchtower teaching on this?

  Any other theories?