Apocalyptic 2 Esdras 2

Doug Mason

Await your shepherd; he will give you everlasting rest, because he who will come at the end of the age is close at hand. Be ready for the rewards of the kingdom. … Receive what the Lord has entrusted to you and be joyful, giving thanks to him who has called you to heavenly kingdoms.

Rise and stand, and see at the feast of the Lord the number of those who have been sealed. Those who have departed from the shadow of this age have received glorious garments from the Lord. Take again your full number, O Zion, and conclude the list of your people who are clothed in white, who have fulfilled the law of the Lord. …

I, Ezra, saw on Mount Zion a great multitude, which I could not number, and they all were praising the Lord with songs. In their midst was a young man of great stature, taller than any of the others, and on the head of each of them he placed a crown, but he was more exalted than they.

And I was held spellbound. Then I asked an angel, “Who are these, my lord?”

He answered and said to me, “These are they who have put off mortal clothing and have put on the immortal, and they have confessed the name of God; now they are being crowned, and receive palms.”

Then I said to the angel, “Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?” He answered and said to me, “He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world.”

So I began to praise those who had stood valiantly for the name of the Lord. Then the angel said to me, “Go, tell my people how great and many are the wonders of the Lord God which you have seen.” (2 Esdras 2:34-48, RSV)

Simon

Ah, religion ... legitimizing mental illness since forever.

Jonathan Drake

The point is.......?

EdenOne

Such resemblance with Revelation!

eden

Jonathan Drake

All Christians and Jews consider Ezra and Nehemiah to be canonical. Jews, Roman Catholics, and Protestants do not generally recognize 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras as being canonical. Eastern Orthodox generally consider 1 Esdras to be canonical, but not 2 Esdras. The Jewish Apocalypse of Ezra is part of the Syriac and Ethiopian traditions and in the Apocrypha of the Armenian Church.

CAUTION: the above was taken from wiki - not necessarily trustworthy.

This would make sense. According to the bible the original purpose was for the Jews to accept the messiah. But they didn't. It makes sense this could be a vision of the end of that era where the Jews accepted Christ. But as it became more apparent they would not, and then they didn't, the means by which the purpose was to be realized changed.

So I have trouble seeing what this proves, even if it resembles revelation. If it was an older writing than revelation from a source other than Jewish or Christian in nature then there would be room to make an argument.

Doug Mason

EdenOne,

That is exactly the point I was hoping someone would observe.

It indicates to me that the writers of Revelation did not have any of the claimed euphoric experiences, but they rewrote existing earlier Jewish material. (2 Esdras is included in some canons of the Hebrew Scriptures - OT.)

Revelation makes little, if any, reference to contemporary Christian writings. That being the case, this contradicts the WTS's statement that certain NT passages in the Gospels, Acts and Epistles refer the 144,000.

(The number 144 is significant in Hebrew gematria.)

Doug

EdenOne

Doug

Can we make definitive assumptions on what material was written first? As far as I could read, the first two chapters of 2 Esdras are thought to be much older than the rest of the work. My impression is that it should pre-date Revelation (less sophisticated theology), but ... that's just little ole me saying.

Eden

Doug Mason

EdenOne,

As I research further, I now have doubts as to which was written first, and I likely need to retract my initial assumptions. The OT canons that contain 2 Esdras are from Christian sources (Epiphanius, Jerome, Council of Carthage, Alexandrinus, Some Orthodox, Latin Vulgate).

Although tradition attributed it to Ezra, that is by no means reliable. As we know, the practice of false attribution extended to several of the NT writings attributed to Paul and to Peter.

So I will take a cold shower on that one.

Doug

EdenOne

I meant to say the two first chapters are much more recent .... anyway, I think you got my point.

Eden

opusdei1972

I noticed that some portion of the prophecy against Babylon the Great was exactly taken from a portion of Isaiah. Have you noted it?

Apocalyptic 2 Esdras 2

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