The idol of 'accurate knowledge'

by Noumenon 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • heathen

    That pretty much goes for all religions peacefulpete not just the WTBTS . Most of them do teach that the only way to salvation is to believe the way they do . That's why they are all cults .IMHO .

  • Noumenon

    I think you hit it on the head El Blanko. The WTS makes such a big deal of accurate knowledge and digging for truth but they do not allow anyone to question the premises and assumptions of many of their more dodgy interpretations, especially in relation to end time chronology and prophesy fulfillment. Now they are being embarrassed on the internet by persons who have exposed the gross error of all doctrine built around and supporting the whole 1914 thing, and other doctrines besides. The faulty underlying premises are there to see clearly for anyone caring to open their mind up (a rare feat for most JW's).

    It's such gross hypocrisy and rich irony in how the organisation tries to champion freedom of religion and worship through the highest Courts in the world, yet suppreses honest critical analysis of all the grey areas in it's doctrine.

    'Accurate knowledge' is what JW's thrash as so essential to everlasting life (John 17:3 ad nauseum) yet they are all fearful of digging deeper into their own accurate knowledge. They believe they of all religions are most like the Boreans, they constantly tell people to test their own religions beliefs, yet they themselves don't want to examine or test any 'inspired expressions' but are content to just put their full faith in the doctrines handed down by their leaders. One can see how much they really are living in fear of knowledge, for if one has true Christian love then fear is thrown out and there is no fear of seekomg out all possible interpretations before settling on what one is prepared to accept as doctrinal truth. In this regard JW's are like the 3 foolish monkeys when it comes to their own doctrine, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, content to put interpretational blinkers on their eyes.

    Narkossis I'm really curious to learn more about this word epignôsis and what it's original word meaning is and how other translations treat it. I recall reading another version which did not have it as 'accurate knowledge' rather just 'knowing' or something like that. Anyone care to enlighten me on this.


  • the_classicist

    Y'know, JWs are just modern gnostics who only use the bible. What was gnosticism all about: secret knowledge that only they had! Knowledge that leads to Everlasting Life!?? Bah. Funny, the bible says that belief in Jesus brings everlasting life (of course, it doesn't say anything about believing in God as being a condition for life, wait that must mean...).

  • JW Ben
    JW Ben

    Before you judge the NWT how about examining what the Greek word renderd "taking in knowledge" actually means in Greek.....

    JOHN 17:3

    This is another text that a lot of people object too.

    It reads in the NWT

    "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you,

    the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth,

    Jesus Christ."

    Other translations that appear to be more popular in the English language do not use the phrase "

    taking in knowledge". Instead they say "that they may (or should) know thee" RSV, KJV, ASV. "by knowing you" The Living Bible. "to know you" The Revised Berkeley Version. "that they may know you" NIV.

    On reading these translation, the reader gets to fell that salvation comes from just knowing God and his Son, that is alll they have to do is have a knowledge of God. Whereas the NWT we are told that it is an ongoing process, continuing gaining knowledge. This indicates more is involved than just knowing about God but a continual commitment in getting to know God.

    The word in question know or knowledge, centres around the Greek word


    Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says (Red my highlights)


    Know, Known, Knowledge, Unknown

    , ginosko , [Verb, 1097]

    Signifies "to be taking in knowledge, to come to know, recognize, understand," or "to understand completely," e.g., Mark 13:28,29; John 13:12; 15:18; 21:17; 2 Cor. 8:9; Heb. 10:34; 1 John 2:5; 4:2,6 (twice),7,13; 5:2,20; in its past tenses it frequently means "to know in the sense of realizing," the aorist or point tense usually indicating definiteness, Matt. 13:11; Mark 7:24; John 7:26; in John 10:38 "that ye may know (aorist tense) and understand, (present tense);" John 19:4; Acts 1:7; 17:19; Rom. 1:21; 1 Cor. 2:11 (2nd part),14; 2 Cor. 2:4; Eph. 3:19; 6:22; Phil. 2:19; 3:10; 1 Thess. 3:5; 2 Tim. 2:19; Jas. 2:20; 1 John 2:13 (twice),14; 3:6; 4:8; 2 John 1:1; Rev. 2:24; 3:3,9. In the Passive Voice, it often signifies "to become known," e.g., Matt. 10:26; Phil. 4:5. In the sense of complete and absolute understanding on God's part, it is used e.g., in Luke 16:15; John 10:15 (of the Son as well as the Father); 1 Cor. 3:20. In Luke 12:46, AV, it is rendered "he is ... aware."
    In the NT ginosko frequently indicates a relation between the person "knowing" and the object known; in this respect, what is "known" is of value or importance to the one who knows, and hence the establishment of the relationship, e.g., especially of God's "knowledge," 1 Cor. 8:3, "if any man love God, the same is known of Him;" Gal. 4:9, "to be known of God;" here the "knowing" suggests approval and bears the meaning "to be approved;" so in 2 Tim. 2:19; cp. John 10:14,27; Gen. 18:19; Nah. 1:7; the relationship implied may involve remedial chastisement, Amos 3:2. The same idea of appreciation as well as "knowledge" underlies several statements concerning the "knowledge" of God and His truth on the part of believers, e.g., John 8:32; 14:20,31; 17:3; Gal. 4:9 (1st part); 1 John 2:3,13,14; 4:6,8,16; 5:20; such "knowledge" is obtained, not by mere intellectual activity, but by operation of the Holy Spirit consequent upon acceptance of Christ. Nor is such "knowledge" marked by finality; see e.g., 2 Pet. 3:18; Hos. 6:3, RV.
    The verb is also used to convey the thought of connection or union, as between man and woman, Matt. 1:25; Luke 1:34.
    , oida , [Verb, 1492]
    from the same root as eidon, "to see," is a perfect tense with a present meaning, signifying, primarily, "to have seen or perceived;" hence, "to know, to have knowledge of," whether absolutely, as in Divine knowledge, e.g., Matt. 6:8,32; John 6:6,64; 8:14; 11:42; 13:11; 18:4; 2 Cor. 11:31; 2 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 2:2,9,13,19; 3:1,8,15; or in the case of human "knowledge," to know from observation, e.g, 1 Thess. 1:4,5; 2:1; 2 Thess. 3:7.
    The differences between ginosko (No. 1) and oida demand consideration: (a) ginosko, frequently suggests inception or
    progress in "knowledge,
    " while oida suggests fullness of "knowledge," e.g., John 8:55, "ye have not known Him" (ginosko), i.e., begun to "know," "but I know Him" (oida), i.e., "know Him perfectly;" John 13:7, "What I do thou knowest not now," i.e. Peter did not yet perceive (oida) its significance, "but thou shalt understand," i.e., "get to know (ginosko), hereafter;" John 14:7, "If ye had known Me" (ginosko), i.e., "had definitely come to know Me," "ye would have known My Father also" (oida), i.e., "would have had perception of:" "from henceforth ye know Him" (ginosko), i.e., having unconsciously been coming to the Father, as the One who was in Him, they would now consciously be in the constant and progressive experience of "knowing" Him; in Mark 4:13, "Know ye not (oida) this parable? and how shall ye know (ginosko) all the parables?" (RV), i.e., "Do ye not understand this parable? How shall ye come to perceive all ..." the intimation being that the first parable is a leading and testing one; (b) while ginosko frequently implies an active relation between the one who "knows" and the person or thing "known" (see No. 1, above), oida expresses the fact that the object has simply come within the scope of the "knower's" perception; thus in Matt. 7:23 "I never knew you" (ginosko) suggests "I have never been in approving connection with you," whereas in Matt. 25:12, "I know you not" (oida) suggests "you stand in no relation to Me."
    , epiginosko , [Verb, 1921]
    denotes (a) "to observe, fully perceive, notice attentively, discern, recognize" (epi, "upon," and No. 1); it suggests generally a directive, a more special, recognition of the object "known" than does No. 1; it also may suggest advanced "knowledge" or special appreciation; thus, in Rom. 1:32, "knowing the ordinance of God" (epiginosko) means "knowing full well," whereas in verse Rom. 1:21 "knowing God" (ginosko) simply suggests that they could not avoid the perception. Sometimes epiginosko implies a special participation in the object "known," and gives greater weight to what is stated; thus in John 8:32, "ye shall know the truth," ginosko is used, whereas in 1 Tim. 4:3, "them that believe and know the truth," epiginosko lays stress on participation in the truth. Cp. the stronger statement in Col. 1:6 (epiginosko) with that in 2 Cor. 8:9 (ginosko), and the two verbs in 1 Cor. 13:12, "now I know in part (ginosko); but then shall I know (piginosko) even as also I have been known (epiginosko)," "a knowledge which perfectly unites the subject with the object; (b) "to discover, ascertain, determine," e.g., Luke 7:37; 23:7; Acts 9:30; 19:34; 22:29; 28:1; in Acts 24:11 the best mss. have this verb instead of No. 1; hence the RV, "take knowledge." J. Armitage Robinson (on Ephesians) points out that epignosis is "knowledge directed towards a particular object, perceiving, discerning," whereas gnosis is knowledge in the abstract. See
    , proginosko , [Verb, 4267]
    "to know beforehand," is used (a) of the Divine "foreknowledge" concerning believers, Rom. 8:29; Israel, 11:2; Christ as the Lamb of God, 1 Pet. 1:20, RV, "foreknown" (AV, "foreordained"); (b) of human previous "knowledge," of a person, Acts 26:5, RV, "having knowledge of" (AV, "which knew"); of facts, 2 Pet. 3:17. See
    , epistamai , [Verb, 1987]
    "to know, know of, understand" (probably an old Middle Voice form of ephistemi, "to set over"), is used in Mark 14:68, "understand," which follows oida "I (neither) know;" most frequently in the Acts, 10:28; 15:7; 18:25; 19:15,25; 20:18; 22:19; 24:10; 26:26; elsewhere, 1 Tim. 6:4; Heb. 11:8; Jas. 4:14; Jude 1:10. See
    , sunoida , [Verb, 4923]
    sun, "with," and No. 2, a perfect tense with a present meaning, denotes (a) "to share the knowledge of, be privy to," Acts 5:2; (b) "to be conscious of," especially of guilty consciousness, 1 Cor. 4:4, "I know nothing against (AV, by) myself." The verb is connected with suneidon, found in Acts 12:12; 14:6 (in the best texts). See
    , agnoeo , [Verb, 50]
    "not to know, to be ignorant:" See
    , gnorizo , [Verb, 1107]
    signifies (a) "to come to know, discover, know," Phil. 1:22, "I wot (not)," i.e., "I know not," "I have not come to know" (the RV, marg. renders it, as under (b), "I do not make known"); (b) "to make known," whether (I) communicating things "before unknown," Luke 2:15,17; in the latter some mss. have the verb diagnorizo (hence the AV, "made known abroad);" John 15:15, "I have made known;" 17:26; Acts 2:28; 7:13 (1st part), see Note (3) below; Rom. 9:22,23; 16:26 (Passive Voice); 2 Cor. 8:1, "we make known (to you)," RV, AV, "we do (you) to wit;" Eph. 1:9; 3:3,5,10 (all three in the Passive Voice); 6:19,21; Col. 1:27; 4:7,9, "shall make known" (AV, "shall declare"); 2 Pet. 1:16; or (II) reasserting things already "known," 1 Cor. 12:3, "I give (you) to understand" (the Apostle reaffirms what they knew); 1 Cor. 15:1, of the Gospel; Gal. 1:11 (he reminds them of what they well knew, the ground of his claim to Apostleship); Phil. 4:6 (Passive Voice), of requests to God. See
    Notes: (1) In 2 Tim. 3:10, AV, parakoloutheo, "to follow closely, follow as a standard of conduct," is translated "hast fully known" (RV, "didst follow"). See
    FOLLOW. (2) In 2 Tim. 4:17, AV, plerophoreo, "to fulfill, accomplish," is translated "might be fully known" (RV, "might be fully proclaimed"). See FULFILL. (3) In Acts 7:13, some mss. have the verb anagnorizo, "to make oneself known," "was made known," instead of No. 8 (which see). (4) In Acts 7:13 (2nd part) the AV, "was made known" translates the phrase phaneros ginomai, "to become manifest" (RV, "became manifest"). See MANIFEST. (5) For diagnorizo, "to make known," in Luke 2:17, see No. 8. (6) For diagnosko, in Acts 24:22, "I will know the uttermost of," See DETERMINE, No. 5.
    , gnostos , [Adjective, 1110]
    a later form of gnostos (from No. 1), most frequently denotes "known;" it is used ten times in the Acts, always with that meaning (save in Acts 4:16, where it means "notable"); twice in the Gospel of John, John 18:15,16; in Luke 2:44; 23:49 it denotes "acquaintance;" elsewhere only in Rom. 1:19, "(that which) may be known (of God)," lit., "the knowable of God," referring to the physical universe, in the creation of which God has made Himself "knowable," that is, by the exercise of man's natural faculties, without such supernatural revelations as those given to Israel. See
    , phaneros , [Adjective, 5318]
    "visible, manifest," is translated "known" in Matt. 12:16; Mark 3:12. See
    , epistemon , [Adjective, 1990]
    akin to A, No. 5, "knowing, skilled," is used in Jas. 3:13, AV, "endued with knowledge" (RV "understanding").
    , agnostos , [Adjective, 57]
    the negative of No. 1, "unknown," is found in Acts 17:23.
    , gnosis , [Noun, 1108]
    primarily "a seeking to know, an enquiry, investigation" (akin to A, No. 1), denotes, in the NT, "knowledge," especially of spiritual truth; it is used (a) absolutely, in Luke 11:52; Rom. 2:20; 15:14; 1 Cor. 1:5; 8:1 (twice),7,10,11; 13:2,8; 14:6; 2 Cor. 6:6; 8:7; 11:6; Eph. 3:19; Col. 2:3; 1 Pet. 3:7; 2 Pet. 1:5,6; (b) with an object: in respect of (1) God, 2 Cor. 2:14; 10:5; (2) the glory of God, 2 Cor. 4:6; (3) Christ Jesus, Phil. 3:8; 2 Pet. 3:18; (4) salvation, Luke 1:77; (c) subjectively, of God's "knowledge," Rom. 11:33; the word of "knowledge," 1 Cor. 12:8; "knowledge" falsely so called, 1 Tim. 6:20.
    , epignosis , [Noun, 1922]
    akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition," and is a strengthened form of No. 1, expressing a fuller or a full "knowledge," a greater participation by the "knower" in the object "known," thus more powerfully influencing him. It is not found in the Gospels and Acts. Paul uses it 15 times (16 if Heb. 10:26 is included) out of the 20 occurrences; Peter 4 times, all in his 2nd Epistle. Contrast Rom. 1:28 (epignosis) with the simple verb in Rom. 1:21. "In all the four Epistles of the first Roman captivity it is an element in the Apostle's opening prayer for his correspondents' well-being, Phil. 1:9; Eph. 1:17; Col. 1:9; Philem. 1:6" (Lightfoot).
    It is used with reference to God in Rom. 1:28; 10:2; Eph. 1:17; Col. 1:10; 2 Pet. 1:3; God and Christ, 2 Pet. 1:2; Christ, Eph. 4:13; 2 Pet. 1:8; 2:20; the will of the Lord, Col. 1:9; every good thing, Philem. 1:6, RV (AV, "acknowledging"); the truth, 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Tim. 2:25, RV; 3:7; Titus 1:1, RV; the mystery of God. Col. 2:2, RV, "(that they) may know" (AV, "to the acknowledgment of"), lit., "into a full knowledge." It is used without the mention of an object in Phil. 1:9; Col. 3:10, RV, "(renewed) unto knowledge." See
    , agnosia , [Noun, 56]
    the negative of No. 1, "ignorance," is rendered "no knowledge" in 1 Cor. 15:34, RV (AV, "not the knowledge"); in 1 Pet. 2:15, ignorance. See
    Note: In Eph. 3:4, AV, sunesis, "understanding," is translated "knowledge;" RV, "understanding." For kardiognostes see
    HEART (knowing the).

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    Here is John 17:3 from the AV with Strongs index numbers notice the red.

    And <1161> this <3778> is <2076> (5748) life <2222> eternal <166> , that <2443> they might know <1097> (5725) thee <4571> the only <3441> true <228> God <2316> , and <2532> Jesus <2424> Christ <5547> , whom <3739> thou hast sent <649> (5656) .

    Notice the reference 1097 look back up to see what the meaning is.

    GINOSKO ? signifies to be taking in knowledge, to come to know, understand, or to understand completely"

    A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament by G. Abbott-Smith says "to be taking in knowledge, come to know, recognise, perceive, understand?. Of the knowledge of divine things, of God and Christ? Jo 17:3

    The Greek word verb GINOSKO denotes the act of knowing through experience. Getting to know our Creator and his Son is always ongoing, just as it takes a lifetime to get to really know a close friend or relative. And the only way that we can really get to know our God is by regular and consistent study of his word.
  • Satanus

    Blah blah blah. Why does the concept of knowing god and knowing jesus present such a problem to you, jwben?


  • zen nudist
    zen nudist

    placing ideas and ideals above the people that hold them seems to be systemic in just about every religion on earth

    only buddhism to my knowledge has as a fundamental that all life is sacred regardless of what errant or harmful ideas is infecting the host.

    this leads automatically to most religions seeking to isolate or destroy those containers which hold the wrong idea or ideals that cannot be removed by coercion or indoctrination or force.

    the first several centuries of church fathers seem to have left a good deal of infighting and damning of others who hold the wrong infections of ideas

    anathema to so and so and all wh o follow his error seems to permiate a great deal of their writings.

    unconditional love seems to be little more than another myth often told but rarely if ever seen in the
    "real" world

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    It seems that all the rhetoric about 'accurate knowledge' obscures the Christian meaning of a relationship with God and Christ.

    The Wt concept of 'accurate knowledge' is about facts, figures, and impersonal data, IMHO.

    The concept of 'knowing God' gives personal relationship the fore -does it not?

    Did not Jesus suggest that 'truth' [or accurate knowledge if u will] was about a relationship with Him?

    "I am the way and the truth and the life" John 14:6

    I know not one wit about Biblical Greek - but was the Bible preserved to our time to be grasped in such technicality only? Or was knowing God and Christ as persons not the issue?

    I am not as sure about the matters of Trinity, Divinity of Christ, and the Nature of the Holy Spirit as I was when I was among the cocky, ever sure, witness organization. But I feel much closer to the Father and Son now than 30+ years of 'accurate [Watchtower] knowledge' ever imparted to me.

    My personal feeling - knowing how the NWT was alterered and doctrinally enhanced by the ever loving and concerned 'oracle' Fred Franz, is that the entire phrase 'accurate knowledge' most likely is not in harmony with the sprit of the word translated - otherwise how have hundreds of translators - who actually are schooled in the Biblical tongues missed this rendering? Are we to assume that all these highly educated men [who in spite of Wt theological implications] are not interested in correctly translating what they consider to be God's Holy word? How did all of them get it wrong - and only one uneducated, non scholar of Biblical tongues get it right? I don't buy that! Do you really buy that, JW Ben?


  • heathen

    Jesus did say that not everybody would inherit the kingdom of the heavens who said lord lord to him . Apparently you have to be one of the 10 virgins that didn't run out of oil for your lamp to gain admittance to the marriage feast of the lamb . There are a number technicalities to consider in reguard to gaining salvation . I think we are living with alot of apostasy involved with christianity which is unacceptable to God so finding the accurate knowledge is very important . For instance most "christian " religions teach that you have to fight and kill over political issues , say to support democracy therefore the church can exist in some countries where it's banned . That is clearly not a chistian belief , christians are to be peaceable to all men in all situations and suffer for the cause . The apostles and jesus suffered humiliating deaths because of the truth but were never found to be violent toward any people that persecuted them instead they boldly went forth to preach before all nations . In revelation it talks of religionists using forms of idolotry which was completely disgusting and so God causes a number of plaques to which they do not repent and learn not to use them in worship so the next thing is God motivates the leapard beast to annihilate the whore so that babylon is no more .

  • OldSoul

    JW Ben,

    I hope you don't take this as harrying you. You did promise a reply to the thread I started for you:

    To me, it seems applicable to the current discussion.

    • Suppose a person believes they accurately know how to do what is right.
    • Suppose this person teaches others their view of what is right and severely punishes those who willfully violate their view of what is right.
    • Suppose this one labels a specific conduct "grossly wrong" and deserving of severe punishment.
    • Suppose this person sharply criticizes those who do not recognize how wrong the conduct is.
    • Suppose this one then proceeds to willfully violate their own view of what is right by engaging in the exact activity they labeled grossly wrong.

    Now, exchange "corporation" for "person" and "one" and you can see why the "NGO thing" matters to me. Purveyors of accurate knowledge should exercise great care lest they prove themselves false by their conduct. (Galatians 6:1)

    Either the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a legal instrument of Jehovah's Witnesses or not. If it is, then there is no need to play semantic games regarding the legally defined terms "Associate," "Affiliate," and "Partner." If it is not, then why should I voluntarily contribute a dime to a secular organization that establishes 10-year long voluntary relationships with organizations under judgement by God?


  • heathen

    Oldsoul ---

    Either the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a legal instrument of Jehovah's Witnesses or not. If it is, then there is no need to play semantic games regarding the legally defined terms "Associate," "Affiliate," and "Partner." If it is not, then why should I voluntarily contribute a dime to a secular organization that establishes 10-year long voluntary relationships with organizations under judgement by God?

    The WTBTS likes to burn the candel at both ends . In countries where they are banned they do not even claim to be the head of a religion , in countries like the US or north america they want complete control and obedience . I found this to be one of the most disturbing things I've read on the board in reguard to this cult , for a religion that claims they are the most truthful they will lie and manipulate to gain power and profit in the world . They totally screwed their credibility when they joined the UN as an NGO because they could no longer maintain their doctrines on exsposing the harlot or condemning the UN as the scarlet colored beast of revelation . I just noticed that they no sooner came out with the grand climax book which did condemn the UN and exspose the harlot in 1988 then they turn around and join the UN as an NGO in 1991 where they agree to support the UN charter mandate and accept all other member which alot were religious as partners . Good grief what a bunch morons .

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