Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep 763 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Leolaia,

    I find it amusing that you still, after all my repeated and repeated attempts to explain the problem to you, have no clue what I'm talking about! Each and every time I said in no uncertain terms that the problem involves YOUR interpretation of the 70 years. The one used by the Watchtower Society. The one that you so dearly love. That one. In the 8 or 9 posts I've made on this problem, not once did I ever use any other interpretation of the 70 years than "that one". That you still persistently fail to realize this speaks volumes in terms of your intelligence.

    This is Scholar's modus operandi.

    He leaps into these threads then gets his chronological and theological buttocks spanked by his betters. He then pulls out the 'athiest' card suggesting that people without faith cannot understand Biblical chronology, or claims that people like Alleymom are not 'true' Christians and could not understand the 'glorious' WTS chronology, and then buggers off for a few weeks like a ferret on a hallucinogenic pilgrimage.

    Those of us who engage Scholar, do not do do so with the faintest hope of getting him to see the errors of his ways, but more for the sake of informing the numerous JW lurkers who are looking in. He has, I believe, done more to confound the WTS based faith that an inquisitive JW may have than any of us could have possibly hoped for.

    For this I sincerely thank him.

    HS

  • jeanniebeanz
    jeanniebeanz

    *psst, hillary... has he ever told anyone where he got that degree?*

  • larc
    larc

    Hey Scholar,

    I would like you to look at my analysis of the writing on the wall, and what in means, if anything. You can find this under the subject of: 1914 - who is in charge.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alwayshere

    True, you have simoly followrd a methodology which from 539 enables one to cakculate the dates for the Babylonian rulers. There is nothing new in this but it is torpedoed by the seventy years. IF the seventy years is factored in there there is a twenty year gap between secular chronology and biblocal chronology. For this reason, WT scholars although using 539 as a pivotal date folllow a different methodology based on the exile rather than a regnal methodology. So we have now two methodologies

    Regnal methology for the secular chronology for 586/587

    Exiliic methodology for the biblical chronology for 607

    scholar JW

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    This so-called "exilic methodology" ignores several critical biblical passages, and misrepresents others. Therefore, this is not a true methodology, but special pleading by WTS apologists. Put another way, it is not biblical exegesis, but sectarian eisegesis.

    AlanF

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere
    If the seventy years is factored in there there is a twenty year gap between secular chronology and biblocal chronology

    Scholar, read your Bible! The seventy years were a time of servitude, not desolation. Jeremiah 25:11"And all this land must become a DEVASTATED place.an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to SERVE the king of Babylon seventy years." Jeremiah did not say Jerusalem will lay desolate for seventy years. These seventy years were a time of SERVITUDE, not DESOLATION. Another Bible verse in regard to the seventy years is 2 Chron. 36:20-21" Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be SERVENTS to him and his sons UNTIL the royalty of Persia begin to rule.." This scripture clearly links the fullfillment of the seventy years with the beginning of of the reign of the royalty of Persia, which begin in 539. The WTS is off 20 years on all their dates.There is no conflict between the Bible and secular chronology. The conflict lies between the WTS and both established chronology and God's word. The WTS's command that all Jehovah's Witnesses be unified in their acceptance of this doctrine in spite of the weight of evidence against it, constitutes a unity that is based on falsehood, and fear of retribution if one dares question any doctrine or policy they submit. I don't expect you to agree with the Bible because you have to believe what the WTS says or else. There are a lot like you who like the lies WTS prints.Now read Revelation 22:15"All liars and those liking a lie will be destroyed."

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Chronology is about methodology and interpretataion which I call the Golden Rule of Chronology. You believe in 587 and use a different methodology to calculate it. But 587 cannot be a absolute date or pivital date marking the Fall of Jerusalem because you cannot be definite about whether it should be 586 or 587. You have big problem here my girl.

    Again you side-step the point I was making, that your interpretation of the 'seventy years' is not necessarily in conflict with 587 BC as the date for Jerusalem's destruction. It is this conflict that is used to justify your approach to the historical evidence. Your "methodology", rather than seeking a preponderance of the historical evidence (which overwhelmingly points to 587/6 BC), basically accepts the secular evidence establishing 539 BC as a pivotal date ? in particular the astronomically-based absolute date of 523 BC and regnal information of the early Persian period ? and then rejects virtually all relevant secular chronological data of the Neo-Babylonian period and the Assyrian period because it supposedly conflicts with the 'seventy years'. You say that we have no choice but to construct a chronology that respects the Bible. That is a requirement of your "methodology". My point is that this conflict only exists when you start with an absolute date of 523 BC. One could just as easily pick a whole host of other absolute or pivotal dates (e.g. 651, 605, 597, 568 BC) to anchor one's chronology, and then add 'seventy years' after the destruction of Jerusalem in 587/6 BC for the end of the exile two years after Babylon's fall ? in full accordance with scholar's "Bible trumps secular evidence" methodology. It doesn't matter if this "seventy years" conflicts with the secular evidence pointing to 539 BC as the fall of Babylon. As scholar says, we must go with the Bible (actually, one's interpretation of the Bible).

    What you think is a "big problem", the uncertainty over whether Jerusalem fell in 587 or 586 BC, is due to an apparent discrepency in the OT which places the fall in either Nebuchadnezzer's 18th year or 19th year (cf. 2 Kings 25:8; Jeremiah 52:12, 29). You bring this up as if this were seriously a consideration for choosing which absolute date one should start off with: 523 BC (with 539 as a derived pivotal date) is good because it supposedly avoids this ambiguity while 651 or 568 BC is bad because it forces us to face this problem in the biblical text. In reality, the relative merits of these absolute dates lie in their confirmability and reliability in constructing a consistent chronology of the Neo-Babylonian period ? not whether they help us avoid certain exegetical difficulties in the Bible. What I find humorous is that you always pose the "587 or 586" quandry as if it were a fatal flaw on the part of chronologists who do not stick to the Bible (such as rejecting the "correct" interpretation of the 'seventy years' in your view) when it is the Bible itself that has given rise to the uncertainty. Regardless of what year is picked as the date of Jerusalem's fall, there is still an exegetical problem in the text that needs to be resolved. To consider the problem intractable, hopeless, and without solution is to admit that the Bible is intractable, hopeless, and contradictory on chronological matters. Is that a position you really want to pursue? It doesn't mesh well with your Bible-inerrant "methodology".

    Rather than consider the problem intractable, various solutions have been proposed to harmonize the biblical data, by pointing out that regnal years were counted differently according to accession and non-accession year systems and that the calendar was either reckoned from Tischri to Tischri or Nisan to Nisan. Some have solved the problem in favor of 587, others in favor of 586. It's true that there is no consensus. But since when in your "methodology" did consensus ever matter? Am I to believe that you care greatly about the lack of consensus between 587 and 586 and yet you don't give a rat's ass about the near TOTAL consensus in the field against 607? Between the two dates, I am most persuaded by 587 because the references to Nebuchadnezzer's 19th year are intelligible according to the non-accession year system and 587 best accounts for Ezekiel 40:1 which dates the 25th year of Jehoiachin's exile (e.g. 574/3 BC) to the 14th year following the fall of Jerusalem. This solution to the exegetical problem (placing the fall in Nebuchadnezzer's 18th regnal year in the accession year system and the 19th year if counting the accession year as the first regnal year) is also the one adopted by the Watchtower Society (cf. Insight, vol. 2, p. 481). I hardly see any reason for you to find fault with it, unless you disagree with the Society.

  • Hecklerboy
    Hecklerboy
    Asked me if I was saying that I did not think this was God's only Channel and told him from what I am reading old and new history I can say right now I dont think it is but open to them showing me why it is.

    Uh Oh Sheri, you might have just set yourself up to be disfellowshiped. This is a key question they ask before they disfellowship someone. I would be very careful with what you say around elders. They have a way of remembering just certain phrases. Good luck in your studies.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    Our exilic methodology omits no relevant scriptures, as it incorporates all texts containing specific regnal data. In addition, the principal texts of the 'seventy years' are included for this chronology. Yes, our schronology requires interpretation of scripture but so does any other alternative including the Jonsson hypothesis.

    If you believe that some texts are omitted then would you please list these 'missing' texts and I will pass this information information to WT scholars for their edification.

    scholar JW

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC
    schronology

    ahahhahah good pun scholar, it verily is a scrawnology.

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