Been searching scriptures for "salvation"

by jaffacake 22 Replies latest jw friends

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  jaffacake

  I?ve been given a NWT Bible, but don't understand how JWs believe as they do.

  Why does the ?Bible Topics for Discussion? include some issues, eg celebrating birthdays, that seem less important compared with the question of how to attain salvation. Yet under the heading ?salvation? the key New Testament Doctrine so often repeated, that salvation is by faith, not works, is conspicuous by its absence? And yet, under the heading Jesus page 1653 C, the James (faith without works is dead) text is referred to ie the one part of the New Testament that when read in isolation, appears to go against the main thrust of the New Testament message, until we recognize that this portion of Scripture is not in the context of how to attain salvation.

  Despite the main thrust of this New Testament message, why, under the heading ?salvation? in the NWT ?Bible Topics for Discussion? is there no mention of this key message that was repeated time and time again in the Bible? Yet other doctrines are stressed which are not nearly so clear or so often repeated in the Bible?

  The New Testament repeats that the way to salvation is through faith and God?s undeserved kindness, a free gift, and not through works, not to be earned. Since when did anyone have to work to earn a free gift? The Apostle warned about anyone preaching a different gospel to this. Is this the message that Jehovah?s Witnesses deliver on the doorstep? Is it a deserved or undeserved kindness?

  Titus 3:4-7

  ?But when the goodness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but by according to his own mercy??

  2 Tim 1: 8-10

  ??for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but by his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Jesus Christ before the ages began??

  Ephesians 2:8

  ?for by grace you have been saved, through faith. And this is not your own doing: it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.?

  Witnesses must not read critical literature in case they may be stumbled, but what did the Apostle Paul say was a stumbling stone?

  Romans 9:30-32

  ?What shall we say then? That gentiles that did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is a righteousness that is by faith; but that

  Romans1:6

  ?But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works ; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

  Galatians 2:16

  ?Yet we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law, no one will be justified.

  Ephesians 2:5

  ?Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ? by grace you have been saved.?
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  jaffacake

  sorry, I lost some of the stumbling stone quote....

  Romans 9:30-32

  ?What shall we say then? That gentiles that did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is a righteousness that is by faith; but that
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  jaffacake

  Romans 9:30-32

  ?What shall we say then? That gentiles that did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is a righteousness that is by faith; but that
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  A Paduan

  "Know therefore, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness....

  ..the land which you are going over to possess is a land of hills and valleys, which drinks water by the rain from heaven..

  "Do not say in your heart, after the LORD your God has thrust them out before you, `It is because of my righteousness that the LORD has brought me in to possess this land'; whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you.

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  The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, `Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.' But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them.....................

  Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.' And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests..................
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  The Leological One

  Know therefore, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness....

  ..the land which you are going over to possess is a land of hills and valleys, which drinks water by the rain from heaven..

  "Do not say in your heart, after the LORD your God has thrust them out before you, `It is because of my righteousness that the LORD has brought me in to possess this land'; whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you.

  ...and that was during the old covenant; we are under a new covenant at this point; not that righteousness plays no role, but the main difference is Jesus has become our righteousness, taking the sins of the world onto himself at the cross (or stake if you prefer) so that people have the choice to accept or decline Him and His sacrifice for themselves rather than trying to achieve a sort of salvation based on works. Please read Romans 2.

  For those who feel there is a problem with works not being involved, how I understand it is that once someone is already saved, they are set apart, blessed, and should do good works as a result of their salvation and being made a new "creature" rather than works being the way to salvation. My wife has reminded me of the works without faith statement. I ask this: What are good works? Did Jesus not say He will separate the sheeps and the goats based on people showing love for others, feeding, clothing, etc. those in need... or a lack of it thereof? I don't recall reading anywhere how becoming popular via spending a large amount of hours promoting an organization = promoting the good news of Jesus death and resurrection so that ANY person can come to God the Father through Jesus -- the way, the truth, and the life.
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  pennycandy

  Yes, the grace of God is all but destroyed in the NWT. The word universally translated "grace" in other works, is translated as "undeserved kindness" in the NWT, which loses quite a bit of meaning. "Believing" in Jesus is changed to "exercising faith", requiring action. The concept of salvation by grace is repugnant to witnesses.

  To the witnesses, there is no salvation apart from their organization.
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  Narkissos

  On the other hand, there is more than Paul to the New Testament.

  Matthew's Gospel or the epistle of James offer a very different "way of salvation" imo.
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  jaffacake

  Narkissos,

  I'm interested in your comment and will look at the scriptures you mention - thanks. It seems to me that Paul's letters are clearly and specifically referring to attaining salvation, and go out of their way to emphasise not works. This seems to suggest this is a very important point. Other parts of the NT don't seem to be referring specifically to the how of attaining salvation, but to the evidence, or fruits that will be evident from those who have already attained it (not that it can't subsequently be lost).

  I notice also of salvation having already been attained by Christians, the present or past tense is often used.

  1 John 5:10-13

  ?The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; and the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life???he who has the son has the life?These things I have written to you in order that you may know that you have eternal life.?

  I can't believe JWs can't see such clear messages. Perhaps salvation by faith is believed by JWs, but only for the annointed?
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  The Leological One

  Thanks Jaffacake and Narkissos,

  I just finished reading the epistle of James. I really like the epsistle and how it explains pure religion is about visiting the fatherless and widows in their afflictions and keeping pure from the world. I think a lot of terminology comes into play in books such as these in that I feel the JW view of keeping undefiled of the world means staying out of politics and being involved in the government whereas a lot of other Christian views regarding keeping undefiled from the world as meaning living a lifestyle consistent with scriptures even though they are around non-Christians quite often; in other words, being involved in government jobs, etc. has nothing to do with being defiled but rather what one does his/herself.

  I feel the word "works" is also a word that takes on a different meaning when dealing with JW's or non-JW Christians. When reading James, he offers a couple of excellent examples of good works:

  1:27 - "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. "

  2:20-26 - "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

  So we see that the works here weren't about some laborious process, though I'm not saying I believe good works can't be done via preaching to people, etc...
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  jaffacake

  Interesting, and not as straightforward as I thought. This seems contradictory, but perhaps not. I agree that the definition of works is clearly about good Christian deeds such that are common in many individuals in many religions, some more so than JWs. As for the faith v works debate I'm still pondering. Perhaps aimed at people who said they had faith and called upon the Lord, but true Christian faith was not manifest in their actions. The main question I raised in my post however was about the NWT, and that it appears biased in that I felt steered away from some clear scriptural messages & towards those supported by JWs. I would have more respect if both aspects of scriptures were referred to, even if the discussion topic then drew its own conclusions. Then again, why add the traditions and creeds of men at the back of a Bible? A concordance (an honest and complete one) is perhaps all we really need.