We are taught that Jeh. created all of us as free moral agents. Meaning we are able to decide to serve him or not to. But how does this work in the case Judas? The bible says it was put in his heart to betray Jesus. And Saul/Paul who was chosen to serve even though he was a killer? So do humans have free will or not?
Free will?
by mjl 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Elsewhere
Here is how I explain this topic to kids: "Freewill is an illusion... now go get me another beer."
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googlemagoogle
we have a very limited and random amount of free will, if at all. all our decisions base on things we couldn't influence. starts with genes, goes on with how family treated us, which friends we had/have, which religion we were born into, the worldview we were tought, the things we saw along our way, and and and. it's an almost infinite mixture of variables that makes us decide this or that.
to the case of judas: the question is, what was the bad thing he supposedly did? the day before jesus rode into the city with a huge multitude seeing him, everyone knew where he was.
but then again, there are always errors in made up stories. -
El blanko
do humans have free will?
Certainly, we have freedom of thought and the ability to work towards putting those thoughts into action.
We cannot physically fly, yet observe nature and the mechanics of flight and then conceptualize a flying machine; moving towards an objective solution to our dreams.
I could stab you in the eye with my pen, yet in my heart I feel sadness and in my mind understand the consequences for doing so. I choose not to based around these reasons of heart and mind.
Yet within my mind at least I am a free moral agent and have - free will (if I choose).
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Golf
Are you sure they didn't mean, "Free Willy?" They left out the 'Y'
Golf -
Narkissos
Here's an interesting article:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
To me the underlying problematic concept (still taken for granted in the above paper) is that of possibility. What exactly do we reflexively or prospectively call "possible," vs. "actual"?
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mjl
I wasn?t thinking free will in the philosophical sense but in the JW sense. I?ve always heard growing up in the "truth" how loving Jeh. Is by creating us with free will, able to decide for our selves, we can choose to serve or not too, but if we?ll don?t we?ll be eternally destroyed. We give us free will if we can?t act on it, is that loving? Or do we even have free will according to the JW logic?
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peacefulpete
mjl...From the JW sense, it is never even questioned. However it is true that precognition and free will are incompatible. Apart from the deterministic clap trap we have free will BECAUSE we have options to choose from. Any God that sees his own actions in advance is bound to them, he has no choice but to do them, therefore He has no free will. It's all a mere mental excercise, one that has little appeal to me, because there is no evidence that the God of the Bible or anyone else has this ability. The Judas story is one of many that have a character acting out a script handed him from birth, a reflection of the authors' low opinion of free will and human autonomy and concept of god as the great puppet master. The Judas story in particular is a secondary layer to the Jesus story drawn from OT episodes with Judah and Joseph story being a template.
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proplog2
Free will is another prescientific concept that gives philosophers and theologians something to do.
It is based on the idea that there is a little person inside of you that pushes buttons (pulls levers in the old model).
There is no one at the controls. There is NO uncaused behavior. Everything depends on a long chain of events.
That is why the whole original sin idea is absurd. However, there is intrinsic sin. Organisms have to be selfish to survive.
The idea of capital punishment is based on the idea that humans have free will and therefore is basically a religious notion. It boggles my brain how people can abandon religion and still believe in free will.
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Doubtfully Yours
Free will is punished by death. So, no, no free will for humans.
God will set the rules. Period.
DY