little flock

by peacefulpete 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  hmike

  Thanks to all for the explanations.

  At the time Jesus said this, he was clearly not speaking to a large crowd, but to his disciples, which, I believe were more than the 12, though. OK, sure, I can see bringing this forward into today to apply to those who meet the criteria. But to connect them with the 144,000 must have been some kind of "divine revelation," because there is no thread of logic to link them with JW or any other organization, even if these are not literal Jews and 144,000 is not meant to be a literal, exact count.
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  AnnOMaly

  Hi hmike

  I agree with you that Jesus was not prophesying that there would only ever be a little flock in the kingdom - he was merely using an affectionate term.

  But if you see Scripture as types, anti-types, dispensations and so on, it would be kind of 'logical' to connect the little flock of 'real spiritual Israelites' of Luke 12:32 with the limited number of 'real spiritual Israelites' of Rev. 7:4.

  The members of the 'royal household' came out from various churches - their baptisms in those churches were valid, and religious 'organization' was a dirty word. It was only after Russell died and Rutherford took over and revised, expanded, changed Russell's teachings beyond recognition and developed an organizational structure with him as dictator, that salvation was dependent on associating with the 'royal class.' This was because the organization, run by those of the 'royal class,' was like the antitypical (here we go again!) 'city of refuge' that the bloodguilty lesser classes had to run to to escape the antitypical Avenger of Blood's wrath. And so, this is partly how the ideas about the 'little flock' and 144K evolved and became a fundamental JW doctrine.
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  Narkissos

  Ann,

  I'm not very familiar with Russell's doctrines: from the link you gave I understand that the "little flock" etc. draws a line between his group and (the rest of) "Christendom"; did he suggest elsewhere a sort of "second-class" salvation for people associated with the WT? I thought this was entirely Rutherford's creation, but perhaps it has some roots in Russell's teachings.
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  M.J.

  Wouldya believe? Russell got the idea of the 144,000 from Barbour! http://www.premier1.net/~raines/offshoot.html

  Nelson Barbour

  ...

  On theology, he taught in the book, as Russell would later in The Watch Tower, that the Church and Jesus together constituted The Christ (pp. 5-6). Jesus and His bride, the Church, constituted the "Second Adam and Eve" (p. 11). The church will become Gods, in fact, they would "become part of the Godhead" (p. 13). This Christ or God class would redeem humanity during the "probationary" period of the Millennium (p. 10) and thus become the "spiritual mother" of the rest of mankind (p. 16). These 144,000 "spiritual beings" would "materialize" as men on earth at will during their Millennial reign or remain invisible while on earth, thereby keeping tabs on the spiritual development of mankind during this period (pp. 43 47). Mankind's worship would in part consist of serving and obeying these "rulers" or "instructors" in the Millennium (p. 68).

  What I'm not clear on is whether or not the Bible Students all believed they were part of the 144,000 or if some of them were part of the "great crowd". I thought I heard somewhere that Russell considered the "Great Crowd" to be a secondary class of Christians who will be in heaven.
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  peacefulpete

  MJ do you or anyone have the actual text of Barbour or the later WT that endorsed these teachings about sharing the Godhead? I wonder if the writer of that piece has slanted this idea by defining it as "becoming gods". The word godhead in old english simply meant to be like God, not necessarily in power etc but in qualities. Having the originals would help a great deal to clarify this.
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  Justin

  Regarding the distinction between the "little flock" and the "great multitude" among the original Bible Students: The one hope of their calling was to become members of the "little flock" - to reign as kings and priests with Christ - and only as a consequence of partial unfaithfulness would someone end up in the great multitude. The great multitude was expected to be a secondary heavenly class similar to angels, but one did not enter the race for life with the expectation of belonging to this secondary class. It would only be in the resurrection that one would know for sure what the final outcome was. In the meantime, all were anointed, all were spirit-begotten and partook of the Memorial emblems. So it was not like today (when the "great multitude" is considered earthly) that each one was expected to identify as belonging to one group or the other.

  As for the original context in Luke in which this expression "little flock" occurs, it certainly is a prime example of taking scriptural terms and phrases out of context and repeating them over and over again. But nevertheless, it is beneficial to ask whether or not it is a term which is applicable only to the original evangelical milieu (belonging to the context of Jesus' earthly ministry and peculiar to the gospel stories) or if it could, by extension, be applied to the church after the change of dispensations. The reason I ask this is that none of the New Testament writings were directed to Christians living in later times, and yet they are commonly applied to such. For example, Paul told the Corinthians that they were the "body of Christ," and yet all Christians understand that they belong to this "body" (JW "other sheep" excepted). Of course, once the number of Christians increased, "little flock" would not seem to be an appropriate description, but I wonder if any other Christian groups have applied the expression to themselves.
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  AnnOMaly

  Hi Narkissos

  I'm not very familiar with Russell's doctrines

  Me neither. I'm trying to put some pieces together myself on this.

  did he suggest elsewhere a sort of "second-class" salvation for people associated with the WT?

  I don't know. Yes, it was Rutherford who really promoted the org=salvation idea, but I'd like to find out any Russellite roots to it.

  Hi Justin

  The great multitude was expected to be a secondary heavenly class similar to angels, but one did not enter the race for life with the expectation of belonging to this secondary class. It would only be in the resurrection that one would know for sure what the final outcome was. In the meantime, all were anointed, all were spirit-begotten and partook of the Memorial emblems.

  Now I'm puzzled. Did the 144k and 'great multitude' together constitute the 'real spiritual Israel?' I have a feeling the 'great multitude' weren't. But they'd have to be to get to heaven and serve in the spiritual temple, right? But it's only the 144k who are seen as Israelites. And the 'great multitude' - according to Rutherford later (before the GM and OS classes were merged into one earthly class) - were not royal priests who could enter the inner court. I'm going to have to look at this ...
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  peacefulpete

  AnnOmaly, that would be great and if you stumble upon Russel or Barbourn references to the "Godhead", it would clarify that as well.
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  M.J.

  Also confused. I've heard Russell did not spiritualize Israel but believed that prophecies regarding that nation were literal.
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  Justin

  Did Russell consider the Great Multitude to be part of spiritual Israel? Based on the article "The Great Multitude" in the March 1916 Watch Tower (Reprint No. 5846), I would say Yes. That article includes both classes in "the Church" - and the Church or congregation is spiritual Israel.

  See http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbnon/r5864b.htm .

  Russell believed in both the natural Israel and the spiritual Israel. But for Russell, the Israel of the restoration prophecies (such as Isaiah 35) is to be the natural Israel. In that sense, it has not been replaced by spiritual Israel. Each has its own destiny. By contrast, the Society today holds the view that the restoration prophecies are fulfilled in a spiritual way upon spiritual Israel since 1919.