What is "Right?"

by Farkel 53 Replies latest jw friends

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Jst2laws,

    I responded to your comments on another post, but I feel this issue is just too important and deserves its own thread.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Jst2laws,

    You said:

    : Even the most righteous believer of God would tend to quote Abraham: “Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?” (Gen 18:25)

    I want you to read and re-read and re-read that sentence, because there is much to be learned from it.

    WHY did a paltry human like Abraham have to ASK God to for HIM do what was RIGHT? Read the whole 18th chapter. Abraham asked God that question a BUNCH of times. Why? Why didn't God know what was "right" in the first place? HE set up the rules about "right" and "wrong" and now we have a human begging him to play by rules that a human KNEW was right, yet God didn't seem to get it until he was persuaded to do so by Abraham.

    JanH and I have both written essays on this matter, because it is a very serious matter. That chapter you cited clearly implies that "right" exists OUTSIDE of the realm of God as a standard HE must reach. God either declares by divine fiat what is "right" or he refers to an outside reference of "right" that he is beholden to. This 18th chapter of Genesis proves that Abraham himself KNEW the standard and humbly coaxed God into following that standard. It can be no other way. Why? Because God relented to Abraham that's why. Abraham cut a deal with God over the issue of "what is right."

    Therefore God cuts deals over what is right and what is wrong and is just as clueless as the rest of us. The Bible God is, anyway.

    If Abraham was right, then God is NOT the standard of ALL right and wrong: there is a standard outside of him that he should and hopefully must live up to. If Abraham was wrong, that whole episode is just another uninspired story.

    Farkel

  • lauralisa
    lauralisa

    Dear Farkel,

    I respect you immensely and enjoy your posts!

    My take on this account was much different: it seemed to be a encouraging example of how God would take into consideration the hurt, confused, and scared feelings of a mere human and accommodate them, whether they were "right" or "wrong".

    (I guess with the "catch-all" resurrection hope thing, I was able to reconcile confusion over the doing away with entire cities of innocents. They would all come back and have ice cream any time they wanted in paradise conditions.)

    I'm looking forward to the responses to your post and wish you well.

    lauralisa

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    lauralisa,

    I found your comments interesting, and I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. I'm being sincere.

    My take on this account was much different: it seemed to be a encouraging example of how God would take into consideration the hurt, confused, and scared feelings of a mere human and accommodate them, whether they were "right" or "wrong".

    Does this mean you think what Abraham was asking of God was not "right" in the absolute sense, but only in the imperfect human perspective sense?

    (I guess with the "catch-all" resurrection hope thing, I was able to reconcile confusion over the doing away with entire cities of innocents. They would all come back and have ice cream any time they wanted in paradise conditions.)

    I've heard this argument before, and here is the response I usually make that I have yet to see answered: In that case, with the resurrection hope and all, shall we have you killed right now? After all, you're going to be resurrected and eat ice cream anyway, so what's your problem?

  • JustAThought
    JustAThought
    In that case, with the resurrection hope and all, shall we have you killed right now?

    An answer is ... No, for you don't have the necessary authority.

    JustAThought

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    An answer is ... No, for you don't have the necessary authority.

    I didn't say I would do the killing. I said: "shall we have you killed?", no doubt by the one who has the necessary authority. In such a case, is it now OK?

    My point, obivously, is that being killed is harsh, no matter who future you may look forward to. Since we would all object to being killed now, no matter what authority the killer may have, why gloss over accounts where God killed people, even if we posit they will later get a reward?

  • Jigrigger
    Jigrigger

    Hi Farkel,

    : "If Abraham was wrong, that whole episode is just another uninspired story."

    BINGO!!!

    Jigrigger

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Hey, D., peace to you!

    May I respond? You can just skip by it if you want, but if not, thank you.

    Abraham, dear one, wasn't asking the assumption that my Father would do 'wrong'. The question had to do with slaying the righteous, along with the unrighteous (I know, why slay anybody... in a minute). To do so would have been unJUST, which is what the word 'mish-pat' means in this case... 'just'. Abraham was asking whether my Father was going to commit an unjust act, the answer to which was no, of course not, and in fact, had there been but ten righteous men in that city, NONE would have been dealt with, for the sake of those ten. In essence, those ten would have 'covered over' for how ever many others there were.

    But even Abraham new that justice required the destruction of those in the city who were unrighteous, thus his question "Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked?" But it was Abraham who was in error. In HIS mind, how could JAH kill righteous people for the deeds of wicked people? But my Father had slated Sodom and Gomorrah for destruction because HE knew... there WERE no righteous within them, other than Lot and his household. Less than ten. He even consented to saving Lot's prospective sons-in-law, which would have been six... but those two didn't 'want' it, as evidenced by their refusal to go with Lot.

    So why did ANYONE need to be done away with? Think about it: in the world in which we now live, one wicked man can be put to death for his heinous crimes to appease vengeance, yes, but also so that in order that his crimes don't continue. I think there are MANY here who would concede to putting a repeated pedophile out of his 'misery' so that no other child is harmed.

    In Sodom and Gomorrah, however, such debaseness had spread to the point where between the TWO cities, there were less than ten righteous people. It was only a matter of time, then, before ALL in those two cities were 'tainted', brought into a lifestyle that preyed on others. And quite possibly, such debaseness would have spread from those two cities to others because it had most probably started in only one of them to begin with.

    We know that in a lot of instances, people who are molested as children grow up to molest. Note, I said a "lot" of instances, and not all. But, indeed, most convicted pedophiles who have molested have experienced some molestation as a child, and sadly was unable to break the cycle but instead further perpetuated the crime. Some have even expressed their inability to stop by asking to be castrated, euthanized, etc. The 'lure' is just too great for them, greater than the 'righteousness' of not harming an innocent child.

    And many PEOPLE... not just God... feel that such individuals should be 'cut off' from society, if not from humanity all together. I don't necessarily share that opinion, nor am I against it either, for it is not my 'call' under any circumstances at this time. And while I may not 'pull the switch' myself, I absolutely understand the feelings on the matter, both by God... AND by humans who have either been subjected to such or had a loved one subjected.

    If we are trying to 'find fault' with God, Daddy-O, we will indeed 'find' it. Everywhere. All we need do is blame Him for what we don't like... and don't understand... or take what has been written with regard to Him and see it in a different 'light' than the one He provided (John 8:12). If, however, we are truly endeavoring to understand God... and His actions/inactions... all we need do is use that TRUE 'light' to get proper 'illumination'. We can go the route of seeing what we want to see (and if we are angry at God, our sight might be a little 'tainted' by glasses colored 'red' rather than 'rosy' - LOL!)... or we can see God by means of the Light of Truth.

    The choice... is ours.

    Peace to you, Daddy-O... to time indefinite. I remain,

    YOUR servant, friend... and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • JustAThought
    JustAThought

    Another take on the original issues addressed ...

    Suppose, ... there is a standard to which God aspires and, subsequently, desires that His sentient creation (men and angels, and others, for all we know) aspire. It could be theorized that this standard is very closely tied to the goal of creating and perpetuating life in this universe.

    In creating sentient beings, or, those with the ability to choose between the good (creative, sustainive activity) and the evil (destructive activity), it could be conjectured that God is in the midst of a process of raising up those who will (in some sense) partner with Him to sustain life in the universe. It could be further conjectured that there is a level of personal development (maturation) which is necessary for us to come to the point where can effectively partner with God to do this work.

    Going on, it is reasonable to assume that God, in a way very analogous to parents having the responsibility of maturing their childen, has before Him the task of maturing us to the point where we can effectively partner with Him. Personal maturation is achieved in a number of ways, including life experience, challenge, modeling, facing moral dilemna,etc. The example presented here where, God, the Father, apparently receives moral direction from Abraham, the child of the Father, could be understood as an opportunity for God to present Abraham with just such a moral dilemna and allow him (Abraham) to work it through to what God, the Father, had in mind to do anyway.

    If we observed the analogous situation of a mother presenting her toddler offspring wih the statement ... "Let's go play in the street," to which her toddler offspring replys with something like ... "But, Mommy ... you said playing in the street is dangerous," we would, as mature adults, many of us parents in our own right, assume, not that the mother is unsure about whether she and her child should play in the street, but, rather that she is allowing her child to exercise his own maturity in rejecting that course of action.

    JustAThought

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    There's a very interesting article on this subject at the Internet Infidel's website.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/bill_schultz/criminal-god.html

    Enjoy!

    --
    Ubi dubium ibi libertas

  • stephenw20
    stephenw20

    what I want to know is.................

    life is life ,spirit is spirit...we seemed to have BEGUN that way getting the INJECTION in the lungs.................

    did the DINOsaurs have spirit.....hmmmmmmmm

    and where did they go?any one cry a tear for them... NOPE!

    and the 185,000 of Senacaharibs army......not one good fellow? I know guilt by association..

    ok here it is....

    he doesnt play by Human rules........

    why should he... he is not human

    h e is a spirit....we are in HIS IMAGE

    HE IS NOT in OURS

    ok terrific!

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