Flat earth myths of Alan F

by Rex B13 18 Replies latest jw friends

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Man, even pagan man, has always known that the earth was a sphere! The Hebrews knew it first, because God told them six times in the Old Testament that the earth was a sphere. That was sufficient for believers!

    Pagan man also knew that the earth was a sphere. Too many people seem to think that ancient man was illiterate, ignorant or stupid. I would remind you, however, that ancient man was able to do works of engineering that we have not been able to duplicate in modern times.

    The ancient Sumerians have been well documented as having realized that the earth was spherical in shape. Their astrological charts that show constellations BELOW the region's view provet his fact!

    First, men were quite capable of reasoning that the earth was round. The shadow of the earth upon the moon was quite sufficient to prove the point. Only a sphere will cast a round shadow regardless of orientation. If the earth were a flat circular shaped object, like a pie pan, it would cast an elliptical shadow during part of the night.

    Second, men were quite aware that as one traveled from near the equator of the earth toward the north pole that the North Star would appear higher and higher in the night sky. In addition, the rotation of the earth was quite obvious, as all stars made a circular path around the North Star during the night. The angle that the North Star makes with the horizon is roughly equal to the latitude of observation. The farther north one travels the more noticeable this is.

    Third, as one travels north and south over great distances, different stars become visible. This fact made it obvious that the traveler was traveling along an arc. These things were clearly known in ancient times. Everyone knew that the earth was a sphere.

    Fourth, there is the weaker argument made by analogy. The lunar phases can only occur if the moon is a sphere. This would lead to a conclusion that by analogy the earth is also a sphere.

    Now, we switch from reason to mathematics. Eritosthenes was born about BC 276 in Cyrene. He was well educated in the schools of Athens and Alexandria. He was a poet, philosopher and astronomer. He became the curator of the Library at Alexandria, the most famous of the ancient world.

    He made measurements of the shadow of objects at the summer solstice near Aswan and at Alexandria. The difference is seven degrees. This means that the distance from Aswan to Alexandria is 7/360 of the circumference of the earth! Eritosphenes and Aristotle taught that the earth was a sphere.

    The well known problem of Galileo and a church which had adopted the Greek worldview was over whether or not the earth or the sun was the center of the solar system. No one argued over whether or not the earth was a sphere. Everyone knew that the earth was a sphere.

    The sole argument at the time of the sailing of Columbus was not over whether the earth was a sphere or flat; the argument was over the size of the sphere and whether the ships of the time could carry enough supplies for a voyage of that distance (thinking that the entire distance from Europe to the Orient would be over water). Period!

    Make no mistake. I hold Columbus in very high regard. Columbus was a Christian missionary. His stated purpose in sailing to the Orient was to take the Gospel to an unsaved world. Where he went wrong was in arguing that it would be shorter to sail from Europe west to get to the Orient. The truth is that he was wrong. Anyone looking at a modern globe will see that it is closer to sail east!

    Who then invented the flat earth concept which has been incorporated in so many of our modern day American history textbooks? Over the centuries there have been men who taught a flat earth, notably Lactantius (AD 245-325) and Cosmas Indicopleustes (AD Sixth Century). But, these men were discredited by their peers in their own times.

    The story which has become so much a part of American history textbooks; the story that Columbus was warned that he would fall off the edge of the earth if he sailed west: well, that story is the invention of a struggling American author of fiction - Washington Irving (1783-1859). Yes, the story of the flat earth and Columbus is the work of the author of the Sketch Book (1820), which included his stories of The Legend of Sleepy Hollow (The Headless Horseman) and Rip Van Winkle.

    Today we find it hard to believe, but in the early years of our country there were few national heroes. When we broke our ties to England we also broke our ties to the heroes of centuries past. One of the persons who helped to fill that void was Columbus. Note the large number of capitol cities named after Columbus - Columbia, SC; Columbus, Oh; and the District of Columbia.

    Irving was born in New York City. In 1815, he moved to Europe. He lived in France and Spain until 1832. While in Spain he translated a collection of manuscripts concerning Columbus voyage. In 1828, he published a largely fictional work entitled The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus.

    Irving described himself as "apt to indulge in the imagination." The obvious problem being that readers of The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus could not possibly tell what was fact and what was fiction. For example, his description of the Council of Salamanca was a complete fabrication.

    In 1834, Antoine-Jean Letronne (1787-1848), produced a more scholarly work attempting to tie the belief in a flat earth with the early church fathers, Revue des Deux Mondes. He was educated in the teachings of Mentelle and Voltaire. In 1798, he wrote a book claiming that Jesus Christ was an imposter. In Revue he wrote that the flat earth was the majority view of the early Christian writers. His statements were untrue, but liberal scholars have quoted him for almost two centuries. Between Irving and Letronne the flat earth myth became a "well-known fact."

    Two more men have served to popularize this myth. In 1874, John W. Draper wrote an antichurch diatribe entitled History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science. In 1865, Andrew D. White became cofounder of the first explicitly secular university in the U. S., Cornell University. In 1897, he wrote History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom. Both men were attempting to discredit creationists in the battle over origins.

    J. B. Russell wrote Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians, 1991. He is no creationist, but he thoroughly documents how the invention of the flat earth was a direct attack against God, the history of the Church and truth in general by secular humanists who were attempting to defend the idea of Christian ignorance versus enlightened rationalists (evolutionists).

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Jeffrey Burton Russell's book Inventing the Flat Earth is a great read and contains much interesting information. Unfortunately it does nothing to help biblical inerrantists with their fundamental problem: the Bible states directly that the earth is a circle, not a sphere; the Bible contains many implications that the earth is flat, not a sphere, such as Daniel's account of the "dream tree" and Matthews account of the devil taking Jesus to the top of a tall mountain from which he could view all the kingdoms of the earth; the Bible contains many references to the idea that the earth is fixed in space and that the sun, moon and stars orbit it.

    The Bible contains no statements that the earth is a sphere, and there are no instances in the Bible where the Hebrew word "chuwg" (circle) is translated "sphere". The Bible contains no statements that the moon orbits the earth, that the earth orbits the sun, or that the earth rotates or even moves.

    The fact that the Greeks and the Sumerians knew that the earth is a sphere, while the Hebrews did not, should tell anyone about the validity of the claim that the Bible is inspired. The fact that "pagans" could figure this out by observation, whereas the Hebrews did not, should tell anyone about the state of scientific knowledge of the Hebrews.

    While J. B. Russell shows nicely that the Church of Galileo's day knew that the earth is a sphere, the Church did not persecute Galileo or Copernicus for teaching that. It persecuted them for teaching that the earth orbited the sun rather than the 'biblical' teaching that it was the other way round. The Church cited many Bible passages to support its teaching.

    There's very little in your post that I haven't already dealt with in much greater detail in my essay "The Watchtower's View of Science" on Osasif's website: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

    But you know all this already, Rex. We've been over this carefully and in excruciating detail several times before on this and other forums. You have yet to address any specifics I've brought up. The fact that you're so shamelessly dishonest in your presentation says a lot about the Fundies you've associated yourself with. It says a lot about you, too.

    AlanF

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Okay Rex: Let's look at your comments:

    "Man, even pagan man, has always known that the earth was a sphere! The Hebrews knew it first, because God told them six times in the Old Testament that the earth was a sphere. That was sufficient for believers!"

    The hebrews knew what? Six times? Where? What verses? Cite them, or quote them!

    You continued,

    "Pagan man also knew that the earth was a sphere. Too many people seem to think that ancient man was illiterate, ignorant or stupid. I would remind you, however, that ancient man was able to do works of engineering that we have not been able to duplicate in modern times."

    Rex, you have confused a lot of apples and oranges here. No one has ever said that early humans did not conceive of a globe or sphere. But, it was not a commonly held view, and even when scientists tried to promote some advancement the Catholic Church slapped them down.

    No one argues that ancient people were ignorant or stupid. They had fewer facts, data, tools, knowledge, tribal religions and customs and beliefs that hindered certain development, among which, was a good understanding of the earth as a globe in orbit around the sun.

    Your mention of their other advancements is not relevant to these. Such as engineering feats they accomplished do not require a working knowledge of whether the earth is a globe or sphere. As for duplication of their feats, we can easily duplicate and exceed anything the ancient peoples did. What modern science and historians and archeologists do not understand is 'how' with their limited tools, were they able to accomplish 'certain' feats. But they did it, and good for them.

    But your assetions prove nothing, and your lack of citing and/or quoting the Bible with respect to God telling Hebrews that the earth was a 'spehere' is highly suspect. Nowhere in the Bible are the words "Globe" or "Sphere" ever used in any context whatsoever. And, unlike your claim of 6 places there are only 2 places where the word "Circle" is ever used with reference to the earth, e.g. Proverbs 8:27 and Isiah 40:22. In both cases modern interpretation to the term 'Circle' is a misunderstanding of what the original writer understood and meant. The "Circle" referred to was never about a "sphere" or "Globe". It is all 'fantasy' and 'wishful' thinking of young earth creationsists to try and make the texts say something that they don't say so as to try and prove their pet notions. - Amazing

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    AlanF

    grate site allan thanks for posting it.

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Ummm....

    Didn't Isa 40:22 say circle and not sphere?

    A circle as Farkel would say is a pizza or pancake. A sphere is a ball.

    Further down in the scripture it talks about heaven covering the earth like a tent. As Farkel and Alan taught me, it would be pretty tough to cover a Australia or Antartica with a tent.

    hawk

  • Copernicus
    Copernicus

    Rex is a troll.

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    No Alan, this posting is not 'shameless' as your view is no better than anyone elses. Differing viewpoints is something that your own arrogance keeps you from recognizing.
    Who cares what you 'posted on ... web site'? It doesn't make your 'facts' any more credible than the research done by a myriad of others that say contrary to your biased view against the Hebrew Scriptures. The fact that the Summerians had the correct view also helps confirm the Hebrew's knew it also.
    After all, you like to claim that they got their Genesis accounts from the same source, right?
    The Jewish apocrypha has never been your strong suit, Alan (hint). Have you ever looked deeper into your claims?

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    > Nowhere in the Bible are the words "Globe" or "Sphere" ever used in any context whatsoever

    Hey Not So Amazing,
    How exacting is hebrew to english translating? How exacting is it to ANY language? Do you have any idea what I am talking about?
    I am always amazed at how literal/rationalistic ex-JWs continue to be. You think that the Bible is directly from God to english speaking Americans in a literal and wholly accurate format, right?
    Chew on that for awhile.
    Rex

  • Copernicus
    Copernicus
    Do you have any idea what I am talking about?

    Does anyone, anywhere, have any idea of what you’re rambling on about?

    Chew on that for awhile.

    Evan-chew-a-troll?

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Here's just one little example for you, Al Baby:

    Wisdom 7
    17 For he hath given me certain knowledge of the things that
    are, namely, to know how the world was made, and the
    operation of the elements:
    18 The beginning, ending, and midst of the times: the
    alterations of the turning of the sun, and the change of
    seasons:
    19 The circuits of years, and the positions of stars:

    Hmm, that sure sounds like earth orbiting the sun but then I suppose you say "they imagined it like a pizza pie whirling around the heavenly bodies, along with the stars."
    LOL
    Did you hear the one about how the eye appeared suddenly in our evolutionary development? Oops, that is no joke. We are really supposed to believe that!
    Cheers,
    Rex

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