Good deal on getting GTR4 soon, VM44. There's some excellent new information in it, especially on debunking Furuli's book Persian Chronology.
Thanks for the tip on the Swerdlow book; got one used for a decent price break.
AlanF
Babylonian Business Records
by VM44 96 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Earnest
hillary_step : The WTS made it clear in a question from readers some years ago that only dedicated, baptised Jehovah's Witnesses would survive Armageddon, though in its cuddly fashion allowed some leeway for the mentally challenged.
toreador : Hillary, I would like to see the quote you said you had about ' only the mentally challenged may be given some leeway.
*** w71 1/15 63-4 Questions from Readers *** Can it be stated flatly that only baptized witnesses of Jehovah will survive Armageddon??A. S., U.S.A. It would be misleading to answer this question with either a simple "Yes" or a "No." The Scriptural answer of necessity must be a "qualified" one, and it is easy to see why. At 1 Corinthians 7:14 the Bible shows that God can consider as "holy" the minor children of a Christian parent. Though they are young and not yet to the point of being personally responsible to Jehovah, their parent is trying to develop in them a love of God and of the way of righteousness. It seems clear that at the time of the destructive war of Armageddon God will preserve them on the basis of the family merit of the Christian parent, even though the children are not yet dedicated and baptized. The reply must also be "qualified" because the Bible does not pointedly say how God is going to handle certain unusual cases, such as those involving mentally retarded persons who never had the capacity to learn about Jehovah and his purposes. Regarding these unbaptized persons, it is possible that family merit may apply as in the case of minor, irresponsible children who have a faithful believing parent or guardian. Nonetheless, these special instances do not diminish in any way the importance of dedication and baptism for those desiring God?s favor and protection through the destructive climax of this wicked system of things.
I am quite confident that both Alleymom and scholar may be considered to be "unusual cases". Earnest
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AlanF
Earnest said:
: I am quite confident that both Alleymom and scholar may be considered to be "unusual cases".
Alleymom is most certainly considered by the Watchtower Society to be "bird feed", as the quotations below prove. These supercede the less severe view shown in your quotation from a 1971 publication. However, I would consider unscholar to be a sort of reverse case, where someone who is retarded, and because of that accepts the entire JW worldview lock, stock and barrel, might get a lighter judgment.
*** w89 9/1 19 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium ***
Only Jehovah?s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the ?great crowd,? as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.*** km 4/97 3 Directing Students to the Organization Behind Our Name ***
5 Shoulder the Responsibility: Every disciple maker must realize that it is his responsibility to direct the Bible student to God?s organization. (1 Tim. 4:16) Each study session should be viewed as a stepping-stone toward the happy day when the new one will symbolize his dedication to Jehovah by water baptism. One of the questions that he will be asked during the baptism ceremony is: ?Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses in association with God?s spirit-directed organization?? Hence, it is important that he realize he cannot serve God without actively associating with the true Christian congregation.?Matt. 24:45-47; John 6:68; 2 Cor. 5:20.AlanF
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Alleymom
VM44 wrote: Do you know where one might find a translation of a Babylonian interest-loan calculation? Even it it does not cross the reigns of two kings, it would be interesting to see just how they did the computations. I have read that they did both simple and compound interest computations, which is quite a feat, considering they used a base 60 number system. Can you recommend any books or articles that cover ancient babylonian business (or astronomical) calculations?
VM ---
Sure, I have a lot of references. I typed up a reply for you earlier tonight, but when I clicked "submit" I lost the whole thing (and hadn't made a copy). Here's a shorter version.
Karen Rhea Nemet-Nejat. Cuneiform Mathematical Texts As a Reflection of Everyday Life in Mesopotamia. American Oriental Society: 1993. ISBN: 0940490757
Michael Hudson, " The Mathematical Economics of Compound Rates of Interest: A Four-Thousand Year Overview". < http://www.michael-hudson.com/articles/debt/CompoundInterest1.html > EXCERPT: Mathematics played a major role in the training of scribes. This hardly is surprising, as cuneiform writing?s first application (c. 3200 BC) was to economic account keeping. Already in the 3 rd millennium BC, scribes were trained in mathematical procedures such as manpower allocation problems (e.g., how many men were needed to dig canals of a given size or to produce a given amount of bricks), the surveying techniques needed to calculate surface measurements (including the geometric analysis of squares and circular shapes), astronomical computations and even quadratic equations. Scribes also were trained to calculate the expected growth of herds and the exponential growth of interest-bearing investments. [4]
Rather than reflecting economic productivity, profitability or the general ability to pay, the accrual of interest was essentially a mathematical phenomenon. For ease of computation, the normal commercial rate had been built into the system of sexagesimal weights and measures. Interest accrued at the rate of one shekel per mina per month, that is, the "unit fraction," 1/60 th . This rate remained constant over many centuries (indeed, millennia), and worked out to 12/60ths per year, 60/60ths in five years. Compounding occurred quinquennially, once the initial principal had reproduced itself in five years. [5] Interest rates in Greece, Rome and the Byzantine Empire likewise were based on ease of computation in their local systems of weights, measures and arithmetic. [6]
The fact that these interest rates were not economically based or responsive to changing economic conditions made repayment problems inevitable. Debt problems also develop today, of course, but contemporary theory insists that economies can adjust to any given level of debt charges. The Babylonians made no such assumption. Their student exercises show that they recognized that herds, for instance, increased at a slower pace than did the growth of debts mounting up at 20 percent per year, to say nothing of agrarian rates typically around 33 1/3 percent.
[...] Scribal students (nearly all of whom were employed in temple and palace bookkeeping) were taught to calculate how rapidly investments doubled when lent out at interest. A model exercise appears in a Berlin cuneiform text (VAT 8528): How long does it take a mina of silver to double at the normal commercial rate of interest of 1/60th (that is, one shekel per mina) per month? (This often is expressed a 20 percent annual interest, inasmuch as 12/60ths = 1/5 = 20 percent.) The solution involves calculating powers of 2 (2 2 = 4, 2 3 = 8 and so forth). [7]
The answer is five years at simple interest, as compounding began only once the principal sum had entirely reproduced itself after 60 months had passed. At this rate a mina multiplies fourfold in 10 years, eightfold in 15 years, sixteenfold in 20 years, and so forth. A related problem (VAT 8525) asks how long it will take for one mina to become 64, that is, 2 6 . The answer is 30 years, six times the basic five‑year doubling period (Illustration 1).
The basic idea of interest-bearing debt is one of doubling times. An ancient Egyptian saying that "If wealth is placed where it bears interest, it comes back to you redoubled." [8] Babylonian agricultural debts at the typical 33 1/3% rate doubled in three years. The Laws of Hammurapi appear to reflect the view that held that when creditors had received interest equal to their original principal ? after three years of service ? the debt should be deemed to be paid off and the debt bondservants freed.
[...]
But in Babylonia the earning capacity of subsistence rural producers hardly could be reconciled with creditor claims mounting up at the typical 33 1/3 percent rate of interest for agricultural loans (or even at the commercial 20 percent rate).
Such charges were unsustainable for economies as a whole. At no time in history has agricultural output grown at sustained rates approaching these levels. In situations where the loan proceeds were used for basic consumption needs, interest charges ate into the cultivator?s modest resources and finally absorbed them in toto. Once the usury process got underway and debtors were called on to pay sums beyond their ability to produce, creditors were enabled to draw the land and other wealth into their own hands.
Economic relations were put back in balance by Babylonian rulers acting from outside the economic system. They cancelled agrarian barley debts no less frequently than every thirty years, proclaiming clean slates on the occasion of their ascending to the throne, or as military or economic conditions dictated. [9] Modern economies would rely on income and price adjustments. But prices for most essentials, and most non-commercial incomes in Mesopotamia, were administered or set by custom. There was no idea that the economy by itself might automatically provide such balance. [footnotes #4-7]
[4] Karen Rhea Nemet-Nejat, Cuneiform Mathematical Texts as a Reflection of Everyday Life in Mesopotamia (New Haven 1993 = AOS Series Vol. 75) provides a bibliography. For the growth of herds, see Ignace Gelb, "Growth of a Herd of Cattle," Journal of Cuneiform Studies 21 (1967). [5] The Babylonians were well aware of the phenomenon of compound interest, but did not apply it in practice. Assyrian long-distance trade investments typically ran for five years (Larsen 1976), the time it took for the investment to double at the rate of 1/60 th per month. The money typically was re-invested in a new contract. From the Old Babylonian period (2000-1600 BC) to the neo-Babylonian epoch (c. 600-333 BC), no compound interest is found in agricultural or commercial practice. When loans were not paid off, interest was calculated and a new loan document was drawn up. [6] I explain the details briefly in "Why did interest rates in the ancient world consistently decline over the millennia," Archaeological Odyssey, July 1999. A more thorough discussion will appear in JESHO early in 2000. [7] Hildagard Lewy, "Marginal Notes on a Recent Volume of Babylonian Mathematical Texts," JAOS 67 (1947):308 and Nemet-Nejat, op. cit.: 59f.Hudson refers to the "one shekel per mina per month" rate of interest. I have some links to sites which have Old Babylonian texts which mention this rate. (The OLD Babylonian texts have no bearing on the neo-Babylonian chronology, but if you are interested in how the texts were worded, these will give you an idea.
I am pretty sure I also have paper copies in my files, but I haven't had a chance to look.
CLICK HERE
Legal and commercial transactions dated in the Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian and Persian periods...chiefly from Nippur
Volume VIII, Part I
by Albert T. Clay
Philadelphia, Department of Archaeologyh, University of Pennsylvania, 1908
One of the documents is a promissory note, bearing interest at 20%. It states: "Monthly upon 1 mina, 1 shekel of silver shall increase."
Publications of the Babylonian Section, Vol. 8, Part 2:
Old Babylonian Contracts by Edward Chiera
Philadelphia: The University Museum, University of Pennsylvania, 1922 Donation documents
Marriage documents
Adoption documents
Purchase documents
Leases
Deeds of Loan -- Page 146Promissory Notes
Receipts
Partition Documents
Exchange Documents
Redemption Documents
Contracts of Hire
Legal Decisions
For the "Deeds of Loan", go here:
http://www.cwru.edu/univlib/preserve/Etana/CHIERA.OLDv8p2/CHIERA.OLDv8p2.134.153.pdf
Then go to page 13, which is page 146 of the original book, and scroll halfway down the page.I have more information for you, but I will post this to start with.
Regards,
Marjorie
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Alleymom
Here's another site for you. It's not as detailed, but take a look at the bibliography on page 10.
The two tablets in Sumerian and Akkadian include mathematical problems involving interest rates in kind on barley at 33 1/3% and on silver at 20% (
YBC4698 , YBC4669 ). The Babylonians understood the critical productive role of a rate of interest which Aristotle could not grasp and which was profoundly misunderstood in both Catholic and Moslem theology. http://www.museumofmoney.org/babylon/bab_page8.htm -
VM44
Hi Alleymom,
I typed up a reply for you earlier tonight, but when I clicked "submit" I lost the whole thing (and hadn't made a copy). Here's a shorter version
Now I will always wonder what was in your "long" version!
Thank you for retyping your material.
The Hudson article on the history of compound interest is a good find. The other material also looks good. I will post any comments I have after I get a chance to read them.
I have more information for you, but I will post this to start with.
Look forward to seeing it.
--VM44
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Alleymom
VM44 wrote:
I received an email from Carl Olof Jonsson!
I had asked him if he knew of any Neo-Babylonian records (tablets) containing interest loan computations crossing two reigns of Kings. I contended that such tablets would be proof conclusive of the relative chronology of the king list from Nebuchadnezzar to Cyrus.
COJ said that he has for many years been looking for tablets that can be used to connect two or more reigns in the Neo-Babylonian periodl. He mentioned that on pages 129-139 of the 4-th edition of his book, The Gentile Times Reconsidered (GTR4), eleven such tablets are presented , and that these tablets connect all the reigns in such a a way that prevents the addition of extra years between any two King's reigns.Hi, VM ---
Just a quick note --- the information you mentioned about the 11 tablets which span two or more kings' reigns has previously been published in the third edition of GTR.
There's nothing new on this in GTR4. That section is the same.
Marjorie