WTS says 215 years - Bible says 430 - Which?

by Amazing 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • You Know
    You Know
    "The time that the people of Israel dwelt in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years." - Exodus 12:40

    When two Scriptures seem to contradict it is necessary to use some intelligence to reconcile them. As I pointed out, Paul applied that 430 year period from the time the covenant was made with Abraham. You can't just throw out what Paul wrote. The way to harmonize this seeming contradiction is revealed in the NWT, The verse you quoted might also read this way: "The dwelling of the sons of Israel, WHO HAD DWELT IIN Egypt, WAS 430 YEARS. And it came about at the END of the 430 years..." So the 430 years encompassed the period of the "DWELLING OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL." That period began when the Israelites dwelt in the land of Cannan and ended when they left Egypt. / You Know

  • gsark
    gsark

    Hang on to your WT folks; I can guarantee you that if this is a booboo, the bound volumes and the WT CD-ROm will say something different!

    Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

  • You Know
    You Know
    Hang on to your WT folks; I can guarantee you that if this is a booboo, the bound volumes and the WT CD-ROm will say something different!

    It is not a "booboo." The Insight volume, which was published about 14 years ago, explains why they used the 215 year period. / You Know

  • gsark
    gsark

    the jw's know its 215 years because they said 14 years ago it was 215 years? Sailboats tacking in circles again?

    You Know, you have just made my point for me. You have just absolutely made my day. That is the reason something like 10 memebers of my family are ex-jw's or inactive. Why can't we just go on believing as we have for 100 years that the Israelites dwelt in Egypt for 430 years? Period. Why do we have to this 215 years based on Geneology blah blah blah and make an isuue of it? Now anyone that doesn't agree with the 215 years is weak at least and apostate at most?

    So what, the GB: Let's see how faithful the sheep are, let's see how gullible they are, let's see who the real JW's are. Let's set a trap and see if they fall in. Let's see if they're strong enough to get through this...

    Some loving shepherds. As far as running ahead of the org, if the GB didn't open their mouths with stuff like this, there'd be nothing to 'run ahead OF'. AAaaaaargh!

    Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi You Know: Before you can defend the WTS position of 215 years we need to first examine what is said about the period of bondage and 'dwelling' in Egypt.

    1. We need to get a copy of the specific Watchtower article to assure that 215 years was written by the Society, and not a typographical error by Hippikon.

    2. Examining all that the Apostle Paul said about Egypt and Israel, he only discusses one time a period of 430 years. So what does Paul say:

    Gal 3:16-18, "Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise."

    According to this, the Law came 430 years after this Covenant with Abraham. This really does not address the 'dwelling' in the land of Egypt, or the '400' years of "ill treatment" the Jews experienced while in Egypt. But, I can see some logistical and chronological issues between the promise to Abraham until the Law. And this would cause some disharmony with the 430 years in Egypt. I see no basis, however, to defend the Watch Tower's 215 year claim. Thier statement is rather arbitrary. Rather, this may be another one of those Biblical Paradoxes.

    3. Examining Luke shows something that clearly contradicts the Society: Acts 7:6,

    "And God spake on this wise, that his seed should sojourn in a strange land, and that they should bring them into bondage, and treat them ill, four hundred years."

    This makes much more sense. Joseph gets sold into slavery, and then rises to become a maga politician in the land. Then his family joined by his dad and brothers wives, and their children, etc. move to Egypt and enjoy the plentiful conditions for sometime, likely 30 years until a new Pharoh takes power. The new Boss does not know Joseph, and so Israel gets treaterd ill and put into slavery which seems to last 400 years accroding to Luke.

    Sooooo ... which Christian Bible writer is talking about what? Luke clearly makes reference to the period of slavery, whereas Paul makes reference to some unknown date of a promise until the unknown date of the Law. What can we make of this? - Amazing

  • cecil
    cecil

    Hi folks.

    1. The June 1st WT (July 15th WT study) does say what Hippikon wrote/quotes in the above-mentioned thread.

    2. June 1st WT (July 22nd WT study):
    "BY DIVINE inspiration the apostle John was able to look some 1,800 years into the future and describe the enthronement of Christ as King. John needed faith to believe what he saw in vision. We today have clear evidence that this foretold enthronement took place in 1914..."

    May I ask: What's that 'clear evidence' ...?!?! Do You Know the answer?!?!

    cecil

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Cecil: Thanks for the reference and the confirmation that the Society did say 215 years that Israel dwelled in Egypt. So, now that I know Hippikon did not make a typo - and I suspected he got it correct since he seems pretty careful with this stuff - then I stand by my above comment that

    " ... then I have to conclude that the Watch Tower Society is losing its collective mind."

    - Amazing

  • zev
    zev

    maybe they started using the metric system and now we have to adjust for american values

    you know....double it and add 30
    ha!


    __
    Zev
    The greatest consistancy of the WTBTS is their INconsistancy.

  • cynicus
    cynicus
    215 Years or 430 Years?

    "The statement in Exod 12:40 that the people of Israel dwelt in Egypt for 430 years is also not without question. [footnote: The figure of 400 years for the same period found in Gen 15:13 (MT and LXX), in Acts 7:6 and in Josephus (Ant. 2,204; War 5.382), is most simply explained as a round number for the 430 figure. For a more complex assessment see Harold Hoehmer, "The Duration of the Egyptian Bondage", BSac 126 (1969): 308-316.)"

    "If, however, a shorter and presumably more realistic estimate is made of the probable length of these generations [Bezalel; Elishama; and Joshua] a shorter sojourn can be supposed. A shorter genealogical sequence which also can point to a shorter sojourn is found in Exod 6:16-20 ... we are not told the age of Kohath when he went down into Egypt, if we suppose that his grandson, Moses, was born 80 years later, and if Moses was 80 years old al the exodus (Exod 7:7), we have a total of only 160 years for the sojourn in Egypt."

    "In Exod 12:40 an actual textual variant in the Septuagint adds several words, so that the statement reads 'The time that the people of Israel dwelt in Egypt and the land of Canaan was four hundred and thirty years.' ... the Alexandrian-Jewish chronographer Demetrius (before 200 B.C.) ... understood that there was an exact division of the 430 years into 215 years in Canaan and 215 years in Egypt. The LXX text is apparently reflected also in Gal 3:17 which makes the 430 years cover the time from the promises from Abraham to the exodus and the giving of the law. Similarly, and perhaps in dependence upon Demetrius, Josephus states in one passage (Ant. 2:318) that the Israelites left Egypt '430 years after the coming of our forefather Abraham to Canaan, Jacob's migration to Egypt having taken place 215 years later.'"

    "Gerhard Larsson (whose comparison of chronology in the MT and LXX indicates that alterations in the LXX are at points where the MT is difficult to understand or self-contradictory) finds a 430-year sojourn-period 'impossible', in the light of the Kohath/Amram/Moses sequence, and concludes that 'at most the period [of the sojourn] could be little more than 300 years' (footnote: Larsson, JBL 102 (1983) : 406). ... for the sake of an interesting possibility in connection with Joseph in Egypt we will add 14 years ... and set down the figure of 314 years."

    The "connection with Joseph" mentioned above lines the biblical chronology up with an Egyptian manuscript, the Book of Sothis.

    The above is taken from paragraphs 358-363 in Handbook of Biblical Chronology, by Jack Finegan (revised edition, 1999.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Cynicus: Thanks for the research. So, then, I guess that I am to now presume that the Watch Tower Society is not out of its collective mind? Or could there be more? Thanks - Amazing

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