One God--Moses 1st? (page 2)

pomegranate

>>But isn't it a given that Moses promoted monotheism?<<

It's only a given if you choose to accept what others have taught and understood it (Deut 6:4) to mean. I accept neither orthodoxy (triune) or JW and others (Arianism/singularity). I understand the Bible to fully communicate duotheism.

Deut 6:4
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

You see that text above? The word "one" in Hebrew can have two meanings. The first meaning is the numeral one. The second meaning is one as in union. How can I know which way is correct? One text (of many) that helped me decide was the following:

John 10:29-30
30 I and the Father are one." (the LORD is one <unified>)

When someone with an open mind reads such words as the above from Jesus, it certainly adds weight that the "ONE" spoken of in Duet. 6:4 means unification and NOT a numerical singularity ie monotheism.

Consider this:

I (The Holy) and the Father (The Most Holy) are one (Temple).

Rev 21:22
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

The temple and the tabernacle fully represented God, as can be seen by this text in Revelation. Well, that symbol was one tent with two rooms. One God consists of two beings. Just as man consists of two beings.

Man = Man and Woman
God = Father and Son

The physical counterparts below reflect the realities in heaven above.

TWO seperate rooms but ONE tabernacle/temple.

The two become one flesh.

pom

patio34

Hi Pom,

I have never run across your line of reasoning before. There is a certain logic to it. Thanks for the explanation.

Pat

seedy3

Some interesting reading I have found on this subject;

Moses "simply means 'born of'. The name normally required another name prefixed to it, such as Thothmoses (born of Thoth), Rameses (born of Ra) or Amenmosis (born of Amen) Whilst the 'moses' element is spelt slightly differently when rendered in English, they all mean the same thing and it seems very likely to us that either Moses himself or some later scribe dropped the name of an Egyptian god from the front of his name."
The birth narrative of Sargon I, who ruled over Babylon and Sumer hundred of years before Moses states his mother "set me in a basket of rushes; with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river, which rose not over me."
"...The birth story is almost certainly a fiction created in the sixth century BC echoing, for the birth of the Jewish nation, the ancient theme of creation emerging from the waters."
- Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas, The Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasons and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus

"Moses was a skilled performer of magical rituals and was deeply learned in the knowledge of the accompanying spells, incantations, and magical formulas of every description...[Moreover] the miracles which he wrought...suggest that he was not only a priest, but a magician of the highest order and perhaps even a Ker Heb [Egyptian High Priest]."
- Sir E. A. Wallis Budge, From Fetish to God in Ancient Egypt

"Moses, a son of the tribe of Levi, educated in Egypt and initiated at Heliopolis, became a High Priest of the Brotherhood under the reign of Pharaoh Amenhotep [Akhnaton]. He was elected by the Hebrews as their chief and he adapted to the ideas of his people the science and philosophy which he had obtained in the Egyptian mysteries; proofs of this are to be found in the symbols, in the Initiations, and in his precepts and commandments....The dogma of an 'only god' which he taught was the Egyptian Brotherhood interpretation and teaching of the Pharaoh who established the first monotheistic religion known to man."
- Egyptian High Priest Manetho (3rd Century BC)

"If Moses was a High Priest of the Brotherhood under Akhnaton, as Manetho states, but did not lead the exodus until the reign of Rameses II, as many historians believe, then Moses must have been an extremely old man at the time of the exodus. (Rameses II did not rule until almost one hundred years after Akhnaton.) The Bible, in Deuteronomy 34:7 states that Moses was 120 years old when he died."
- William Bramley, The Gods of Eden

The stories in much of the OT seems to have much in common with the ideals of the Egyptian monotheists, as well had a lot of influence from the Zorastra beliefs after the fall of Babylon.

The historian Philadelphus, writing on the origins of the Greek translations of the Old Testament, stated that the Scriptures had perished during the captivity of the Jews while in Babylon. And that at the time of Artxerxes king of the Persians, that Ezra the Levite priest having become inspired in the exercise of prophesy then restored again the whole of the ancient Scriptures.

One last interesting quote:

After killing an Egyptian hitting a Habiru, Moses "went on the run, heading east into the Sinai where he was taken in by the Midianites (also called Kenites) and where he married the king's daughter, Zipporah.
"It was here that Moses was introduced to the god of the Midianite tribes, a god of storms and of war whose symbol was a crucifix-like motif worn on their foreheads; it later became known as the 'Yahweh Mark'. This god, who lived in the mountains, provided the inspiration and central theme for the God of the Jews following Moses's conversations with Him on Mount Horeb."
- Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas, The Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasons and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus

Food for thought.

seedy

patio34

Hi Seedy,

Thanks for the info. I'm printing it all out and saving it. I'm continually amazed at you folks who seem to have this research at the ready! How do you do it?

It certainly is food for thought. The WT Insight books put Moses' birth in the 1500 BC which seems way off.

I'll keep this for reference in my loosely organized files!

I've done geneaology in the past, and now this kind of research and both can produce a lot of paper!

Thanks,
Pat

pomegranate

>>There is a certain logic to it.<<

1 Cor 14:33
33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

patio34

Hi Waiting,

Re your supposition that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Melchizadek, & others were also monotheists, consider this.

This presupposes that the Bible is true and the writers were above skewing the stories, which, of course, is debatable.

Now, we know that MOSES wrote the Pentateuch--Genesis thru Deuteronomy, which contains the stories of the above people. He could have simply wrote it so that the others believed ONLY in Jehovah--backpedaling the saga in order to fit his beliefs.

The following may support that:

1. Abraham came from Ur which was one of the chief city-states of Sumer. He could have easily been polytheistic.

2. Rachael's family was polytheistic, as you brought out recently on another thread. She stole Laban's gods.

3. "Elohim" is used to refer to God often in the 1st 5 books. It is plural. The WT and others explain this to mean magnificence in Hebrew language. It also could have simply been plural.

What do you think? There may be more possibilities in this line, huh?

Pat

waiting

Welllllll,

Back to my childhood remarks to my older sister who was taunting me (you)........

OH YEAH????????????

I'll think of something, I guess. My younger, idiot, sister stance is up for grabs, eh?

But the idea of possibilities is that there is something to base them upon.

This presupposes that the Bible is true and the writers were above skewing the stories, which, of course, is debatable.

How do "we" actually "know" that Moses wrote the first five books. If all is debatable, then is this a proven fact beyond doubt?

I agree, if Moses wanted to progress his own thoughts - he would do just like the WTBTS does - make their own history, and their own quotes. Or chop other's quotes to suit their own needs.

Like father like son?

waiting

patio34

Ha, ha Waiting!

LOL! I'm not taunting you! Besides, I didn't think it up--my boss did as I was relating this info to him.

Coincidence: he belongs to a book club and just received a book on Akhenaton. He's bringing it in for me tomorrow.

I don't know how sure it is that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, but I'll check . . . soon. . . I'm sure I will . . .

Love,
Pat

Sargon

I thought you might be interested in the roots of the title El, used to mean God in much of the early books. El was the head of the canaanite pantheon of gods. He was represented by a golden bull and was superior to the other canaanite gods such as baal and yamm.

I know it's only Rock n' Roll...

seedy3

As far as Abraham and the others being monotheists there is a section in Gen where Abraham makes a servent swear an oath if you read it carefully you will notice that it says "swear an oath to the God of heavens and the God of Earth" although not resounding evidence to being multitheistic, it is strange he would not have written it or said it in this way "swear an oath to the God of heavens and earth". It is really not very clear if Abraham was even a real person he may have been, but there is little true evidence to show it.

The first 5 books of the bible seems to have 2 major writers and 2 lesser. The two major writers Were the Yahwest and the Elohist. Much of the differences can be seen in the writings. Take a look at the first 2 chapters of Genisis. They deal with creation, but they are not quite the same even in the order of creation. Many apoligiests have used various explantions for this, but the most common is that they were written by multple people and assembled later in years.

There is a websight that digs into this subject, but unfortunatly I have it bookmarked at work not here at home, I will post it on monday when I go back to work for anyone to read.

Another old religion that is also monotheistic, and you may not beleive it is Hindu. Although they have many many gods theyreally only have one god. That is Brahman "all is Brahman, Brahman is all things. Here is a websight on Hindu beleifs and how much of them are simular to Christianity http://religion-cults.com/Eastern/Hinduism/hindu2.htm It might surprise you.

Also Hinduisem is older then the Hebrew religon, the roots of Hindu are possibly as old as 4000bc, but possibly a later date of 2200bc is proposed. That would make Hindu the first monotheistic beleif. The story of Job is considered to be a Hindu story in it origan, and was adopted into the OT after the contacts with the Persians in the 6th centary BC.

seedy

One God--Moses 1st?

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