Leolaia,
Thanks for those quotations. I left in 1986 and didn't remember any positive talk about "mainstream" Church Fathers (unless Tertullian should count). It's quite an untenable position indeed.
WHEN DID APOSTACY SET IN?
by badboy 23 Replies latest jw friends
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barry
Dont forget about the revival in the fourth century when Arius presbyter of Alexandria first said that only the Father is true God. Arius was supported by Eusebius of Caesarea and then the matter led to the first church council held at Nicea in 325. Barry
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Justin
I think both the Society and the Protestants, if they could, would like to say that the apostasy really occurred in the fourth century with Emperor Constantine. But this is a difficult position, because for the JWs the early church fathers were too orthodox, and for the Protestants they didn't place enough emphasis on grace. So both end up with an earlier apostasy that actually begins with the death of the last apostle, John, around the end of the first century.
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steve2
In my view, the first Christian apostate of any note was the apostle Paul. Compare the tone and content of his epistles with the four gospels. Paul, a converted Jew, had a rule on almost eveything and he really appeared to be a control freak. He bad-mouthed anyone who questioned his authority, came up with recommendations that were little more than edicts in disguise (e.g., women should remain silent in church and ask their husbands if they have any questions!). Most tellingly, he formalised the ex-communication process.
I suppose the introduction of rules and policies had to happen, given that the end did not arrive when expected and the followers at that time had to settle down rather than hang around "urgently" waiting for the end to occur. deja vu.
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Narkissos
Compare the tone and content of his epistles with the four gospels.
The oldest Pauline material is likely much older than the four Gospels. And the first canonical Gospel in time (Mark) is probably influenced by Pauline theology (especially in its critical attitude toward the Law). Nothing's simple.
Heresy or heterodoxy (slightly different from "apostasy", but that's what the WT really means with the latter word) is the shadow of orthodoxy, just as "the devil" is the shadow of "God" or "paganism" is the shadow of "revealed religion". Once the positive concept emerges on the winning side of the power struggle, the negative instantly appears too, as a brand on anything which differs.
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steve2
The oldest Pauline material is likely much older than the four Gospels. And the first canonical Gospel in time (Mark) is probably influenced by Pauline theology (especially in its critical attitude toward the Law). Nothing's simple.
I agree, Narkkisos. Even you're considered statement - that Paul's epistles predate the gospels - would be considered heresy by many!
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moshe
When I first started to meditate about this about 10 yrs after I left the WTBS I had an epiphany :-) (not allowed at the KH)- G-d just told his people at Mt Sinai his laws and rules- this is it! No real explanation for why some things were unclean or why this was prohibited, etc. G-d just gave his laws--period.! But when you read the Christian NT what do you see? Page after page of "human reasoning" to convince you of the change in G-d's laws. Think about it.
Shalom,
moshe
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stillajwexelder
I agree largely with Mary - big "apostasy" in 1980s but it all started when Simon set up this board and before that of course Randy with www.freeminds.org
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badboy
I have no faith in JWS,Mary.
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Narkissos
G-d just told his people at Mt Sinai his laws and rules- this is it! No real explanation for why some things were unclean or why this was prohibited, etc. G-d just gave his laws--period.! But when you read the Christian NT what do you see? Page after page of "human reasoning" to convince you of the change in G-d's laws. Think about it.
Agreed. But... what about the Talmud?
Doesn't making sense of an old text in a new historical context always involve a lot of "human reasoning"?