Adam and Eve

by Kristen 50 Replies latest watchtower bible

Frenchy

Part 3
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The person reasoned that Adam and Eve were real people but were not the FIRST humans. The reasoning was that it was first to them that the issue was presented and that upon failing the test, the rest of God’s dealings with mankind moved forward from that specific rebellion.
There are many theories about that famous account, none of which completely satisfy all the questions that arise out of it. For with each scenario, a different set of questions arise which are unanswered by the Bible and therefore must be answered by speculation. Whatever happened back then was evidently extremely significant. I can’t help but feel that the details were deliberately withheld from us. If (another big ‘if’) that is the case then they were withheld from us by God and so it is futile to speculate. But then isn’t that the case with so many things?
Perhaps what happened in the garden was, as I suggested earlier, no test at all. Perhaps it was a situation set up by God who knew from the start what would happen. Perhaps it had to happen. Hebrews 5:8 “Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered” Isn’t this a profound statement? Jesus had to learn obedience THROUGH suffering. Dwell on that for a few moments. Consider this one too:
Hebrews 2:10 “For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings
How was Jesus made perfect? Through sufferings. What about us?
Luke 21: 19- By endurance on YOUR part YOU will acquire YOUR souls
Endurance of what? Sufferings. A further clarification:
Ro 5:3,4 - And not only that, but let us exult while in tribulations, since we know that tribulation produces endurance; endurance, in turn, an approved condition;
Is it just me or are you starting to see something developing here? Does it appear to you that we HAVE to suffer to attain to an approved condition in the light of these scriptures?
James 1:3 “knowing as YOU do that this tested quality of YOUR faith works out endurance” Interesing to me is this use of the word ‘endurance’ (‘perseverance’ in some translations) Some translations translate the word as ‘patience’ but given what we are talking about I believe that ‘endurance’ is a more accurate term. So why do we need endurance (perseverance, okay, patience also!)? Because (big sigh!) from the beginning this was intended to last a very long time! Perhaps much longer still before it is completed.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
Frenchy

Last Part
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So perhaps the thing with the apple (I know, nothing says it was an apple! ) was not a test of whether or not man (notice, ladies, that I’m not blaming the woman!) would disobey the commandment but rather to demonstrate that it would be disobeyed. I think that from the very beginning that man HAD to go through what he is presently experiencing before he reaches his final stage, whatever that may be. If Christ had to learn it, why wouldn’t we? Perhaps it’s true what has been said in the past, that without grief there can be no true joy, that without darkness, the light is taken for granted, that without death, life can never be fully appreciated. All the little pleasures of life would seem to indicate this. We can never rest until we are tired, nor know just how good a cool drink of water is unless we are truly thirsty, nor can we ever experience the ecstasy of eating a truly fine meal unless we are hungry. It is only against the backdrop of adversity and need that we come to fully realize the preciousness of peace and fulfillment. Of course for this to be of any value to us, it will have to end one day. Hunger is good but it must be made to end for us to appreciate it’s purpose. Unending hunger serves no beneficial purpose. Evil is the backdrop against which good is amplified once the latter triumphs. If the evil does not end then the good is nullified by it. It must end to serve its purpose. So here is where hope steps in. Hope ties everything together. Hope allows us to suffer the evil in expectation of its end. Hope is what make hunger and thirst not only bearable but in a way welcome because of the anticipation of their satisfaction by food and water. Hope turns adversity into an appetizer for that which is promised.
James 1:4 “But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything” So let the rain come and while we shiver in its dismal drenching of our souls we shall rejoice in anticipation of the sun. Let the sun scorch our troubled brows and we shall delight in our sweet expectation of life-giving showers of refreshment. We shall endure the long, fearful night and encourage ourselves by our hopes for the things we shall accomplish in the light of the coming day. For we will reckon that “the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us… I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” –Ro 8:18;38,39
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
Edited by - Frenchy on 20 August 2000 11:54:17
Seven

Frenchy-an excellent post, as usual. I believe as you stated in part 2 that the provision for the messiah had been made prior to the fall of man. It would have been impossible for God not to know what was going to occur before everything was set in motion.seven
Kristen

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Edited by - Kristen on 31 August 2000 22:2:48
waiting

Wow, Frenchy, a 3-parter, makes my head spin....
Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" -- therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
First of all, it was years before I figured out there were 2 special trees in the garden.
Second, I was taught that the cherubim and sword, etc. were placed at the entrance to keep A&E from eating of the tree of life.
Third, I never realized that God gave no prohibition against eating of the tree of life - and would appear that there was no fence around this tree in the garden. Why wouldn't A&E eat of the tree of life, "reaching out their hands"?
Good reality check......
However, did you read the story of the Five Officers posted on h2o, then brought here for a thread?
[url= http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=696&site=3]The Tale of Five Officers[/url]
If you are suggesting that this world, and all it's problems, were set up by God, so we could be tested and proved through our sufferings, then which of these officers would picture God?
And what would be the reason that some persons go through life relatively smoothly, then die a quiet life - and others are born into pain & misery, give pain & misery, then die in pain & misery?
Which person was proved more perfect through suffering? Was the smooth life already near perfection, thus not needing to suffer? Was the pain & misery person more evil needing more perfecting?
Or is it just a toss up?
Does not paint a rosy picture of God, does it?
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 20 August 2000 18:32:58
waiting

ok, part II
Anyway, the point is that Eve made it clear that they could eat of ANY fruit tree in the garden EXCEPT ‘the tree of knowledge of good and bad’. Were they then eating from the ‘tree of life’? Some have suggested that they were perhaps eating from this tree on a regular basis, maybe even daily. The account gives no prohibition against eating from it. Eve made it plain that there was ONE tree denied to them. (The society contends that the couple would have been allowed to eat from the tree later on after the ‘test’ was completed)
Since there was no prohibition against eating from the tree of life, and he was designed to live forever, and he had not sinned yet, perhaps Adam & Eve did eat from the tree of life on a regular basis. God didn't say they couldn't......
So, after they sinned, then God said it was necessary to keep A&E from the tree of life, for if somehow they reached it and partook, they would regain their "live forever" status.
Hhmmmmm, nothing said about obedience to God, sinning, repentence, etc. Just sneak to the tree, eat - and presto! you can live forever (sounds like a book, huh?) again, while still being a disobedient sinner.
Even though God said that A&E would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge, if they could eat from that tree and then run to the tree of life - they could, as sinners, live forever? Wouldn't that thwart God's purpose? So, it was a race between God and A&E to see who could get/keep away from the tree of life?
And btw, why wouldn't Satan tell Eve of this trick to maneuver around God's law?
This doesn't make much sense, does it? Sounds rather childlike and simplistic.
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 20 August 2000 19:1:56
Zep

Just my jibberish thoughts!
Every society has that idea of 'Utopia Lost' and that it will one day be regained.I see in the story of Adam & Eve a sort of Metaphor for the evolution of human Consciousness.They chose to disobey God in some manner, to set their own standards and becomes Gods of their own.This is what sort of sets us apart from the rest of the animals, our ability to reflect on our own nature and emotions and determine our own standards via logic and consciouness.Its sort of a story that emphazises out growth away from base instincts like that in animals and primitive man...towards consciousness.In taking the fruit they were moving Away from Emotional instinct...towards rationality.The Rational mind is great thing, but can cause great untold damage?!
I think i see your point Frenchy, i mean, in life its important to realize that dark side of your own nature...and you can only harnest it and bring it into control by experiencing it and becoming aware of it to some degree.Becoming aware entails making mistakes and therefore suffering.Else it remains there in the dark, unknown and ready to spring on you!.I mean, You cant control a bad temper...until you realise you have one!
So, God creates a being in his own image(for whatever reason)...So i assume we have the same mental qualities of God, a mind similar, we experience similar emotions...and have similar logic capabilities.So, god Creates a being called Lucifer...and Adam and Eve.This creature called Lucifer realises that his nature is capable of defying God, of going against his will....and So he does it, uses it, he Tricks or tells Adam and eve and to Go against God also, all just because he can ...but to me, he must have known it was a suicidal act and that God would punish him, that he'd be finished in doing so!.So,God now has on his hands a rebelious Angel...whos called Gods bluff and decided to live out that dark side of his Nature and defy God.Whats God to do?...he could kill them right there?, but what would be learnt about this side of nature and the actions of Satan and Adam and eve?. I dont know?...the only way i can see things is that, you can tell people what is right, what is wrong, and how they should live their life...but in the end, personnal experience is the best teacher.I like the way Buddhists rationalize the issue of suffering...everthing is just Karma and working towards Nirvanic heaven...this means making mistakes,searching the evil/destructive side of your nature and then bringing it into focus and relation to the postive aspects, and this is done over many lifetimes.Maybe if God exists...maybe?, then Human history will become a great lesson in strengthening Gods creation, maybe one day people will look back at the big picture of human history and see a lesson in it all....but then again, people demonstate a great ability in not being able to learn from History...its the worlds biggest problem, history repeats and repeats.Maybe God is that X factor that will put in all in perspective?.But i dont know, God might have made a big mistake in making us in his own image...even in God's paradise i reckon youd still get people doing evil, and going against God?
I cant Justify all the suffering in the world, why God would allow it is a little beyond me...but still, maybe theres a reason?...we just cant see the big picture????????????????????.Man it'd be good to be in Gods shoes just for once eh, just so could understand what the hell is going on?!
Edited by - Zep on 20 August 2000 22:49:10
Frenchy

I want to thank all of you for your responses and comments.
Zep:
Man it'd be good to be in Gods shoes just for once eh, just so could understand what the hell is going on?!
I have often felt the same way BUT…IMHO, I am slowly coming to the realization that the very nature of this whole thing (call it a test? I think it’s probably more a conditioning) is entirely dependent upon our NOT KNOWING! Look at the account of Job. This might very well be the closest we will ever come (this side of our state of being) of getting a small piece of the cosmic puzzle. Job epitomizes obedience and trust in God. It would have been an easy matter for God to tell Job what was happening but he did not. Why not? The test depended on his now knowing where this adversity was coming from. Actually, it depended on Job’s presumption that it came from God. And it worked, Job did actually believe that God was sending all of this upon him. (And you know, inasmuch as God, while having the power to prevent it, allowed it, even gave explicit permission to the devil for his scheme, it could be said that God was responsible for that misery) There are many profound scriptures in the Bible, gems hidden in among the gold, if you would. One day when I have time (Yeah, right!) I’ll start composing a list of those. Anyway, look at Job 2: 10,11 (NWT)
Shall we accept merely what is good from the [true] God and not accept also what is bad?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
I know I’m repeating myself but Job believed that God was doing this to him! AND YET!, YET STILL –“he did not sin with his lips.” As far as we know, Job never knew what really happened. Could our test/conditioning be of such a nature that to know exactly what was happening would corrupt it and render it invalid? Of course I don’t know but I think that perhaps this may be the case. Even supposing it does not invalidate it because we REALLY don’t know!
Here’s a thought that I have entertained from time to time. Tell me what you think of it. God wants us to love him based on what he has revealed about himself. Even when God does things that are seemingly ungodly and cruel he wants us to trust him explicitly. And now for an understatement: Even though that is a very difficult thing to do. Complete trust in God even in things that we cannot possibly understand as being from God, will humble us and while we anguish in our pain and sorrow we will know that God is crying with us. If I knew that God was crying with me in my sorrow there is nothing that I could not bear. I must somehow attain that caliber of faith and it cannot be had without the pain and suffering.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
Frenchy

Dear SEVEN:
Frenchy-an excellent post, as usual. I believe as you stated in part 2 that the provision for the messiah had been made prior to the fall of man. It would have been impossible for God not to know what was going to occur before everything was set in motion.seven

Thank you. I said that some have suggested that the ‘tree of life’ was symbolic of Christ who was to come later. IF that assumption is believed then it would indeed suggest that God knew man would ‘fall’. I’m one of those people who do not believe that God knows all things. It would nullify free will. Free will by definition has to be just that…free. If God knows what you are going to do, at that point you have no more choice in the matter, it’s a done deal. Had God known what Job would have done, it would have been no test, just an object lesson for the devil, a very cruel lesson at Job’s expense. This is the remarkable thing about free will –it is the ONE area in which God does not interfere. It is the ONE variable for God, the one thing that all he can do is guess about. The moment that he peers into the future and sees what you are going to do, then your action is cast in cement, so to speak, and you can no longer exercise free will in that particular matter. I think that free will was one of the great things invented by God at the time of creation, perhaps the greatest thing. God created something that was beyond his control. It was a courageous and daring thing. Maybe God likes excitement as much as we do, we are in his image, are we not? Perhaps free will did not always exist, perhaps it came into being after the angels were created and then once it was given to them it may very well be what caused the rift between the sons of God in heaven in the first place. Who knows?
The devil saw opportunity there. Have you ever wondered how Satan, a very powerful and intelligent creature, ever imagined that he could defeat God? What could it possibly be that he saw that even suggested to him the possibility of contending with the irresistible force of God? Two things, I think. One I borrow from Milton’s Paradise Lost. Perhaps God ‘hid’ some of his power in that neither Satan and his followers (all powerful and intelligent creatures, God did not make any stupid angels!) nor the rest of creation for that matter ever fully realized just what ‘Almighty’ really is. Next, the free will thing. Perhaps Satan has set up a paradox dealing with free will and God’s will. Think about this for a minute. God’s will MUST take place. Free will says God cannot mess with it. Suppose that free will is in opposition to God’s will, what happens? God’s will demands that he interfere with free will and then when he does that he will, in effect, un-create his own creation and by such an action admit that it was faulty. If it’s faulty it’s his own doing and then God can no longer be perfect…Hey, all sorts of possibilities come into play here. Perhaps it all hinges on the human free will thing. I don’t know but I can’t help thinking about it.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
Seven

Frenchy,
Have you ever wondered how Satan, a
very powerful and intelligent creature, ever imagined he could defeat God?
Because he knows he can. If you can believe that God can only
guess about free willwhat makes you think he didn't guess wrong and underestimate this dark mirror image of himself that he created? His perfect adversary turned out to be a little too perfect maybe. If God likes excitement as much as we do, fasten your seatbelts humanity because we are in for a loooong ride. No wonder there is no apparent end in sight for this system of things. The perfect adversary won't let it happen. Point and counterpoint on into infinity, while God's toys(us) and some of his toys that the Adversary has borrowed and won't give back, struggle to do what they can to attain immortality. Worship God or worship Satan(the world, or whatever they're calling him these days). God's battle plans outlined in the Bible tells us he will be victorious. Jehovah is guarding all those loving him, but all the wicked ones he will annihilate.Ps. 145:20 All who remain faithful to the end will be saved. Bring it on then-both of you.
seven

Adam and Eve

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