Help! Bible Questions -- A Few More

by ESTEE 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ESTEE
    ESTEE

    Hi Everyone!

    I'm writng more today ... and here are a few more questions ...

    11. Where does it say in the bible there is no clergy/laity distinction and no paid ministry class - that they and everyone in the group is equal?

    12. Where do elders get the idea that they have been given their special position of authority from God?

    13. Where in the bible does it discourage questioning of the group's teachings?

    14. Where does the bible promote shunning of parents? Children?

    15. Where is the scripture about "Anyone looking behind the plow is not well suited for the kingdom"?

    Much appreciated!!! I'll check in later today.

    Love you all,

    ESTEE

  • blondie
    blondie

    sidepoint on #11

    Why does the WTS say they have no clergy-laity distinction except when it comes to reporting child abuse. Then they hide behind a secular law saying they can't because they are clergy.

    In a separate ruling, Pirtle granted the plaintiff's requests for some church documents referring to allegations of sexual abuse by Kelley. Attorneys for Jehovah's Witnesses groups had argued that such documents were protected from disclosure because of a "clergy-penitent" privilege.

    http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/040404/...abusecase.shtml

  • ESTEE
    ESTEE

    Thanks Blondie! I always find your posts very informative.

    I actually appreciate any of the commentaries that anyone wishes to offer on these scriptures, as it often jogs more memories that I could write about.

    I appreciate the info, except that I could not get the link to work.

    Love,

    ESTEE

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Disclaimer: I quote the texts (NWT) as the WT uses them (as far as I remember), which doesn't mean that it uses them correctly.

    11a. Matthew 23:8ff:

    8But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ?leaders,? for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

    11b. Matthew 10:8 (actually about miracles):

    YOU received free, give free.

    1 Corinthians 9:3ff (Paul acknowledges that he has the right to be paid but voluntarily renounces this right:

    3My defense to those who examine me is as follows: 4 We have authority to eat and drink, do we not? 5 We have authority to lead about a sister as a wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the Lord?s brothers and Ce´phas, do we not? 6 Or is it only Bar´na·bas and I that do not have authority to refrain from [secular] work? 7 Who is it that ever serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who shepherds a flock and does not eat some of the milk of the flock?

    8 Am I speaking these things by human standards? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For in the law of Moses it is written: "You must not muzzle a bull when it is threshing out the grain." Is it bulls God is caring for? 10 Or is it altogether for our sakes he says it? Really for our sakes it was written, because the man who plows ought to plow in hope and the man who threshes ought to do so in hope of being a partaker.

    11 If we have sown spiritual things to YOU, is it something great if we shall reap things for the flesh from YOU? 12 If other men partake of this authority over YOU, do we not much more so? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this authority, but we are bearing all things, in order that we might not offer any hindrance to the good news about the Christ. 13 Do YOU not know that the men performing sacred duties eat the things of the temple, and those constantly attending at the altar have a portion for themselves with the altar? 14 In this way, too, the Lord ordained for those proclaiming the good news to live by means of the good news.

    15 But I have not made use of a single one of these [provisions]. Indeed, I have not written these things that it should become so in my case, for it would be finer for me to die than?no man is going to make my reason for boasting void! 16 If, now, I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, woe is me if I did not declare the good news! 17 If I perform this willingly, I have a reward; but if I do it against my will, all the same I have a stewardship entrusted to me. 18 What, then, is my reward? That while declaring the good news I may furnish the good news without cost, to the end that I may not abuse my authority in the good news.

    12. Acts 20:28

    28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son].

    Hebrews 13:17:

    17Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU.

    13. E.g. 2 Timothy 2:16ff:

    16But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·nae´us and Phi·le´tus are of that number. 18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.

    14. Matthew 10:34ff:

    34Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man?s enemies will be persons of his own household. 37 He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

    15. Luke 9:62.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    As Narkissos demonstrated (more quickly than I could ), the question about a paid clergy is considered in 1 Corinthians 9 (emphases mine):

    Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

    My defense to those who examine me is this: Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock? I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. But I have used none of these things. And I am not writing these things so that it will be done so in my case; for it would be better for me to die than have any man make my boast an empty one. For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me. What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

    The point appears to me to be that the normative situation is for a preacher to receive his material living from the ones he serves, just as the Levites ate from the sacrifices of the Temple. Paul had chosen as a personal matter not to accept such support, but that was an unusual situation because of the circumstances in Corinth. He had every right to support. The Watchtower, of course, loves to cite the verses about Paul not accepting support as if they were normative for all Christian preachers - quite the opposite; a paid ministry was the rule, Paul was the exception.

    As Narkissos also pointed out, Matthew 10:8 ("You received free, give free") applied to the miracles that were being performed by the disciples, not to whether they should later be paid for their labor as professional preachers.

  • ESTEE
    ESTEE

    Wow, this is great stuff ... which I knew nothing about! I did not know any of this about Paul being the exception!

    It makes an even stronger case, don't you think?

    Thanks so much for your input! I really appreciate it!

    Love,

    ESTEE

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    My suspicion is that "Paul" was (once again) making a virtue of necessity. Basically he was a self-appointed "apostle" and was denied this title by the Judeo-Christians. Of course the Acts of the Apostles have him duly appointed by a unified Church, but this doesn't agree with the Pauline epistles.

    Interestingly, in post-Pauline literature "paid ministries" appear again. Cf. 1 Timothy 5:17f.:

    17Let the older men who preside in a fine way be reckoned worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. 18 For the scripture says: "You must not muzzle a bull when it threshes out the grain"; also: "The workman is worthy of his wages."

    Even the WT acknowledged that the "double honor" actually meant "higher wages".

    E.g. Insight on the Scriptures art. "honor":

    Elders who worked hard in teaching were to be given "double honor," which evidently included material aid. (1Ti 5:17, 18)

    But in the Watchtower 10/1/1997 this view seems to be criticised:

    14

    Some translations of the Scriptures are obviously worded with a view to helping preachers to get a good salary. It is true that the Bible states: "The workman is worthy of his wages." (1 Timothy 5:18) But at 1 Timothy 5:17, where it says that older men who preside in a fine way are to be "reckoned worthy of double honor," the only honor that some of them view as worth mentioning is monetary. (Compare 1 Peter 5:2.) Thus, The New English Bible says that these elders "should be reckoned worthy of a double stipend," and the Contemporary English Version says that they "deserve to be paid twice as much."
  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Do I say this on human authority? Does not the law say the same? For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain." Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake

    This passage condemns jwism - having absolutely no idea what the biblical writings are referring to, they are so directed by their own fear that they are willing to blackmail and require the death of children, based on the complete and utter barrenness of understanding for what is meant by "blood".

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    ESTEE, You have plenty of answers already to your questions but looked up some scriptures so will go ahead and show what I found. Question11: Jesus said at Matthew 23:8 "All are brothers." He also said at Matthew 10:8 "You received free-give free" I think Jesus was talking about the "free gift" of healing others because of what Acts 8:14-18 says. Question 12: The answer I give here is "from the WT Society. Question 13:The Bible does not discourage questioning the groups teaching. In fact Acts 17:11 encourages you to" examine the scriptures daily to see if the things you are being taught is the truth.WT Society does not want you to do this and if you do, you are in trouble. Question 14: 2Thessalonians: 3: 14-15 Paul said "Have no company with him that does not obey our word, yet do not count him as an enemy but admonish him as a brother. and Jesus said at Luke 6:27 "Love your enimies." The Bible does not promote shunning but the WT Society teaches you to hate your family and view them as dead if they disagree. Question 15: Luke 9:62.

  • ESTEE
    ESTEE
    Question 15: Luke 9:62

    I don't have a bible ... what does this scripture say?

    Thanks so much for all your help, it is very much appreciated.

    Love,

    ESTEE

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