How to handle dubs [stupid lack of] reasoning

by AlmostAtheist 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    When I discussed birthdays with my MS father-in-law, I brought up how eye-makeup has pagan roots, is only mentioned twice in the Bible, and both times it is associated with someone wicked guilty of murder. In every way, it is identical to birthdays, yet it isn't condemned. He said, "We're not talking about make-up, we're talking about birthdays."

    When I was discussing Christmas with an elder from the Hall I attended, I brought up the pinata article and quoted the part that says, 'How something was viewed hundreds of years ago isn't important, it's how it's viewed today that we need to be concerned with.' His response? You guessed it: "We're not talking about pinata's, we're talking about Christmas."

    I'm sure if I point this YMCA/UN (see Englishman's librarycard thread) thing out to a dub, they'll respond, "We're not talking about YMCA, we're talking about UN."

    So it leads to two questions. Firstly, how are they all able to make this same response? I don't remember the society bludgeoning me with that sort of false reasoning, yet here it is, over and over.

    Secondly, what's the best way to defeat this sort of reasoning? I intend to point out that when asked about the End Times, Jesus said, "As in the days of Noah, so the end will be." No one butted in and said, "Whoa, whoa there Messiah-boy! We're not talking about the flood here, stick to the topic." But if you'd had success with something, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

    Dave

  • blondie
    blondie

    You have to educate them about "principles." Why is smoking wrong according to the WTS although it is not mentioned in the Bible...principles. So get them to admit the principles, then show how they apply to the other situation. Many JWs function by rote instructions or rules, thinking makes their brains hurt. That is why they like the WTS doing their thinking for them.

    ***

    w69 2/15 p. 126 Questions from Readers

    ? What is the attitude of Jehovah?s witnesses toward the use of tobacco??J. G., U.S.A.

    The Bible does not comment directly on the view that God?s servants should have concerning the use of tobacco. This is understandable, since, according to one encyclopedia, tobacco was not used in Biblical lands until more than fifteen centuries after the Bible was completed. Yet, from what we read in God?s Word, it is easy to see that the use of tobacco, whether one is smoking, chewing or snuffing it, is an unclean habit that goes contrary to Bible principles. So Jehovah?s witnesses strongly discourage its use, and they view as spiritually immature any Christians who continue to use tobacco.

  • Lostreality
    Lostreality

    I see what you mean everytime i talk to a JW. Much like politics these days.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    Blondie, The Oracle of [Ex] Jehovah's Witnesses!

    Very, very good! Thank you for this!

    Dave

  • itsallgoodnow
    itsallgoodnow

    I've never had any success reasoning with JWs, and I don't expect to. They are very defensive about it. Somewhere deep inside, they might really know something's not right, but they throw up the defense out of fear.

    I recently heard bridesmaids were also from a pagan origin, too. They were used to ward off an attack from evil spirits. If the evil spirits tried to attack the bride, they would get the bridesmaid instead. So, when are they going to ban bridesmaids from the weddings, I wonder?

    If they are going to use the pagan origin thing they shouldn't be so selective about it. But being selective is really what they are all about. Selective scriptures that support whatever BS they are going on about, selective destruction by God, selective stories of being saved by God for going to the meetings during natural disasters, etc.

  • Incense_and_Peppermints
    Incense_and_Peppermints
    When I discussed birthdays with my MS father-in-law, I brought up how eye-makeup has pagan roots, is only mentioned twice in the Bible, and both times it is associated with someone wicked guilty of murder. In every way, it is identical to birthdays, yet it isn't condemned. He said, "We're not talking about make-up, we're talking about birthdays."

    Jehovah's Witnesses, masters of deflection...

  • ballistic
    ballistic

    Yes, I find it interesting that they are so selective about which pagan origins to ignore or not. Has the subject of rings ever been posted on this site before? Here you go (source http://www.nisbett.com/symbols/rings.htm )

    Rings

    Let's look at the ring for a few minutes.

    "The ring is a circle, symbolic of eternity, unity, reincarnation and the universe. In earlier times the ring was associated with the Sun and Moon. It was an object of protection, a magical guard that warded off negativity through its continuity....

    "All rings were once magical or sacred. Even goddesses and gods wore rings; Babylonian mythology is replete with stories of the rings of Shamash and Marduk. Rings have also been linked to the zodiac, the yin/yang and the 'magic circle' of magicians and Wiccaus. Their magical history is complex and fascinating.

    "In a magical sense, wearing a ring 'binds' you with power, with energy. The materials of which the ring is constructed, plus your visualisation, determine the nature of this energy ....

    "The appearance or attractiveness of a ring, and certainly its material value, are of little importance in magic. The ring's design, the metals and stones used are the only factors involved in selecting rings for magic ....

    "The finger on which a ring is worn has magical significance. The index or 'ring' finger was once thought to be especially powerful. Herbal medicines were applied to the body with the ring finger to strengthen the effectiveness of the cure. Thus, rings containing stones which speed the body's healing are best worn on this finger....

    "Once, rings were usually worn on the third finger, because it was thought to contain a nerve that went directly to the heart. Betrothal rings are still traditionally worn on this finger."

    Another book reiterates:

    "In astrology, the thumb is correlated with Venus, the index finger with Jupiter, the middle finger with Saturn, the ring finger with the sun, and the small finger with Mercury.--In popular parlance, the ring finger used to be called the 'heart finger' because people believed that it was directly connected to the heart by a special vein or nerve; the symbolism of love and fidelity of the ring finger, particularly of the left hand (the side of the heart), also has to do with this.''

    Our Phallic Heritage says this about the ring:

    "The Wedding Ring, customarily put on during the marriage ceremony and worn continuously thereafter, had a phallic origin. In the Buddhistic hand sign of blessing, the thumb and index fingers are joined at the tips, forming a circle, symbolising the yoni, while the other three fingers (the middle, ring, and little fingers) are extended, symbolising...the male [genital] triad. When the ring is placed on the ring finger (the penis symbolised), it symbolises the union of the male and female; hence, through this symbolism, the wedding ring means marriage or union.''

    Occultist and Mason, Manly Palmer Hall, asserts:

    "The wedding ring originally was intended to imply that in the nature of the one who wore it the state of equilibrium and completion had been attained. This plain band of gold therefore bore witness of the union of the Higher Self (God) with the lower self (Nature) and the ceremony consummating this indissoluble blending of Divinity and humanity in the one nature of the initiated mystic constituted the hermetic marriage of the Mysteries.''

    More about the wedding ring can be found in The Occult Sciences. There we find:

    "It may be pointed out that wedding rings are a remnant of the magic rings. They are worn on the ring finger, because in chiromancy that finger corresponds to the heart. The husband will be master in the home, if, on placing it on his wife's finger, he is careful to push it right down.''

    According to A Pictorial History of Magic and the Supernatural "Chiromancy is based on the cabbala ....

    Also, chiromancy is another name for palmistry? This is a form of divination. For instance, Dictionary of Mysticism states: "Chiromancy: The art of divination from the shape, of the hand and fingers and the lines and other markings which appear on them.'' The World Book Encyclopaedia indicates under "palmistry": "It is sometimes called chiromancy. It is a combination of astrology and handreading See also fortune telling."

    Of course, divination and astrology are strictly forbidden by the Scriptures in Deuteronomy 18:10-12. See also II Kings 17:17 and Acts

  • Incense_and_Peppermints
    Incense_and_Peppermints

    hmm, i guess when they start tellin their followers they can't wear wedding rings, all hell will break loose. it was only after i left them and met this pagan guy who taught me a lot about his religion that i learned the real truth about wedding rings, the signifiance of the ring finger, etc. and i thought wow what hypocrites.

    i give your post !

  • lonelysheep
    lonelysheep

    That's where the brainwashing comes in and they answer with the responses you got, or they don't say anything at all and cry persecution. If they were allowed to let their brains take over and reason, they'd see the fallacies. I know it must've been frustrating! I hope their logical thinking kicks in one day.

    Ballistic, thanks for posting the rings info...interesting.

  • melmac
    melmac

    Er.. we're not talking about rings... LOL.

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