Revelation 11:18 ("bring to ruin those ruining the earth") Meaning? (page 2)

Forscher

John was probably thinking in terms of the sixth chapter of Genesis with which he would have been very familiar.

I think we would all agree that man today is indeed ruining the earth in just about every sense, ecologically, morally and spiritually. I think an all out nuclear war would ruin the earth just about permanently. Will God let that happen

No, most here would no longer revel in this culture of pessimism. Society today is the best it has ever been. Advances in every aspect of human endevour has resulted in unprecedented lifespans and cooperation. It is unfortunate that there is a growing negativity in some circles(notably fundementalists) that ignores or distains this achievement, offering nothing but critism and finger pointing. The 'Noble Savage' and utopian past are myths that work against progress and optimism.

Deputy Dog

peacefulpete

Can you clear this up a little?

Advances in every aspect of human endevour has resulted in unprecedented lifespans and cooperation. It is unfortunate that there is a growing negativity in some circles(notably fundementalists) that ignores or distains this achievement, offering nothing but critism and finger pointing.

What achievements and which "fundementalists"?

D Dog

City Fan

Fairmind, you said

I think we would all agree that man today is indeed ruining the earth in just about every sense, ecologically, morally and spiritually

No, I wouldn't agree. Let's start with ecology. While I'll admit that mankind has polluted the planet, this is nothing compared to past natural geophysical events which have caused many mass extinctions. For instance, in the late Permian extinction (245 million years ago) around 95% of all marine species were lost. 75% of all land vertebrates also became extinct. Now either the 'biblegod' thinks most of his creations are not worth keeping, or natural climate changes are a continuing problem for life on earth.

Is mankind ruining the earth morally? Well, can you think of anything more immoral than this " Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Go on, read Numbers 31 and then talk about morality!

Is mankind ruining the earth spiritually? I find very little if any spirituality in the Old Testament, but a little more in the New Testament. I think more and more people are looking for something different than the biblegod who throws thunderbolts at everyone he dislikes.

CF.

City Fan

Deputy Dog,

What do you mean 'what achievements?'

Would you rather go back and live in the 14th century?

Leolaia

Almost Atheist...I wrote a long post about this a while ago....it is an allusion to Leviticus about "defiling" the land with fornication and sin....the word "ruin" here has the sense of "defile"....see if someone can find my post from early in the year....

ballistic

Well, you don't walk outside of your house and say "gosh, CO2 levels are a bit high today!!" or "ozone is a bit depleted down town" do you?

We rely on scientists to tell us this.

But when you walk down the sub-way and see kids spraying graffitti and see people throwing litter and a brawl in your local pub, then you could quite honestly make comment about the state of "world".

Narkissos

Revelation 11:18 uses the Greek verb diaphtheirô. It also occurs in 8:8f:

The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea became blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

The basic form phtheirô appears in 19:2:

he has judged the great whore who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants.

Genesis 6:12-13 LXX uses the related verb kataphtheirô.

The same diaphtheirô is found in Jeremiah 28:25 LXX (= 51:25 MT):

I am against you, O destroying mountain, says the LORD,
that destroys the whole earth.

Leolaia might be alluding to Numbers 35:33f:

You shall not pollute the land (= earth) in which you live; for blood pollutes the land, and no expiation can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of the one who shed it. You shall not defile the land in which you live, in which I also dwell; for I the LORD dwell among the Israelites.

Even though the Greek terms in LXX are different, this may shed light on the connection between "destroying the earth" by "violence" in Genesis and Revelation.

Once again Revelation appears as a patchwork of OT texts and notions. Nothing here about "ecology" of course.

AK - Jeff

I'm not sure about some of the views here - although some seem plausible on the surface.

From the simplist point of view of a Christian leader communicating with other Christians in a very uncertain time for the jewish-christians, would this not seem to be just a further assurance to those readers of hope; as opposed to the hopelessness they saw in the oppression of the Romans that had continued for many decades now? Their temple was gone, Jerusalem's future uncertain, the Romans continued to dominate their lives from all sides. Wasn't the 'earth' - that is the part of it they occupied and were concerned with being 'ruined' at the moment - trampled by the Romans, ect .

Could this be the meaning -?

Just My Opinion

Jeff

Revelation 11:18 ("bring to ruin those ruining the earth") Meaning?

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