Am I Really Hurting Myself?? Prov. 14:12

by Monica 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • Monica
    Monica

    Hi Everyone!

    I've been communicating back and forth with an old friend from my teen years, who is now an elder. I used to be a JW when I knew him and he was not very spiritual so I was completely surprised at his current status. (Before I get questions on if I am "interested" in this elder, I just want to say that I'm happily married to a super-cool guy and have no intimate feelings for this elder whatsoever.)
    We have been mostly filling each other in on our families, but every now and then, the topic of JWs will come up and below is a statement he made in his last email to me.

    Can someone please tell me what Prov 14:12 says? I don't have a Bible in the house and am just wondering what exactly it says. As if this scripture should somehow prompt me to want to return to this silly cult. Here is his statement:

    It pains me to say this but it reminds me of a scripture that you probably know, about how we might think our own way is the best way, but in the end it ends up hurting us.(Prov. 14:12)

    If anyone can come up with something clever, but non-offending to say back, that would be appreciated too! Thank you for your help!

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Monica,

    Proverbs 14:12 says, "There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward."

    Sorry, I don't have a clever comeback for your elder/friend. Everything you say will go through their special "filters" and only reinforce their belief that they are God's only true organization on earth, bla, bla, bla. "Brick wall" comes to mind.

    GopherAlways do right; this will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
    Mark Twain (1835-1910)

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    As Gopher mentioned, there is little you can say that would reach him. Scriptures like that one always apply to "someone else". He would never think that maybe Proverbs 14:12 could apply just as equally to him.

    Then again the scripture is rather redundant. "The ways of death" are ultimately the end of everything.

    Path

  • TR
    TR

    It's interesting that the WTS makes this verse say that EVERYTHING a person does, save for WT BS, is the wrong way.

    Monica,

    Is your life better now than as a JW? Tell the elder that the proverb says : "there exist A way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward." It might be pointing to certain activities, not a general idea of not being a JW.

    TR

    "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every
    form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson*

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Monica,

    Perhaps a little bit of history regarding the 'men' who have directed the org. might help him see, another application of this scripture.

    Even the die hards, will acknowledge that CTR, JFR, NHK, FF were responsible for many of their current beliefs. If you can quickly show how many of their directives and policies, have changed or been abandoned, maybe you can turn the intent of that scripture, right back in his lap?

    I doubt he will allow you the opportunity for any specifics, but THE LIST would be a good place to start, if he opens the door.

    Really a tough sell, but if he really is interested in your thinking, he may at least listen...there is always hope.

    Danny

  • messenger
    messenger

    How about this:

    I appreciate your concern about my spirituality, but why don't we make a deal. If you will stop passing verbal judgments on me as a wicked worldly person, I will try not to offer verbal judgements on you as a self rightous cult member. Fair enough?

  • thinker
    thinker

    Monica,
    May I suggest these?

    Prv23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
    Prv19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
    Prv1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

    thinker

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    If anyone can come up with something clever, but non-offending to say back, that would be appreciated too!

    How about this:

    My friend, I can well appreciate that a way that seems upright to us can be a bad road after all. The problem is, how would we ever know if this is a good road unless we investigated it? You may feel, as a JW, that you can put your trust in the Governing Body to provide the right way. But how do you know they provide the right way unless you investigate? What if, as has happened in examples in the Bible, they have taken the wrong road? How would you possibly know it unless you investigated? Wouldn't you then be going on the wrong road, following blindly? Is that the Berean way? Is that using our God-given minds?

    Remember, we can't trust our instincts to follow the right way, according to Prov. 14:12, so we have to have facts. I did the investigating, found the facts, and am comfortable in my knowledge. I hope and pray the same comfort for you.

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Geetings Monica,

    For all those that do not have a bible at home and have this situation happen, there are many links that have many versions of the bible on the net with research guides,concordences, encyclopedias, and interlinear guides. Here are a couple.

    > http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.html
    > http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?
    > http://bible.crosswalk.com/

    I hope this helps some of you in the future. Most of these have 8 or more versions of the bible and you can cross reference them on some of the websights to get the idea what is meant by the verses.

    seedy

  • Monica
    Monica

    I just wanted to thank you all for your help!

    Gopher,
    I think you are totally right in that talking to them is like talking to a brick wall. I know that anything I say will most likely not make a difference, but then again, why are we all here? I totally understand what you are talking about regarding their ignorance though. I just fear my silence will make him think I agree with him. Thank you again!

    Path,
    Exactly - it's funny how they think they are above some scriptures. So self-righteous. Thanks for your help!

    TR!!
    How's it goin? Yes it is much better now!!! I tell him about my new, improved, happy life every chance I get. I must have really ticked him off for him to quote that scripture to me. I wonder if this is his way of trying to see if I believe JWs are the only "way", because I haven't challenged any doctrines yet - just hit "common sense" stuff. To me the scripture sounds like, even though you might be doing upright things, you still end up dying. JWs sure don't like it when someone else interprets a scripture differently! :o) I think it's finally getting to the point where its just too hard not to offend him anymore. Thanks for your help, again!! Hope all is well!!

    DannyBear,
    You really got me thinking too! I'm sure he's already got his brick wall built all around, but even so, I think I'll turn it on him anyway. What is "THE LIST"? Is there a specific "list" you are talking about? Or were you just referring to the former JW leaders (CTR, JFR, etc.)? I think he will read the next email no matter what I say. I think he is that curious. My mom thinks like you - that there is always hope.

    Messenger,
    I was laughing outloud at what you said!! :o)

    Thinker,
    Whoa - those were good ones!!! :o)

    Seeker,
    Excellent! Even Jesus talked to Satan. He talked to sinners as well. But JWs (unlike Jesus) will not hear the other side and are forbidden to hear it or read about it. Jesus even let Satan test his faith.

    Seedy,
    Thanks for the great links!

    I am not going to send him a message until later in the week. I am certain he will read it. My mom really thought I should print what he said in the paragraph surrounding the scripture - it really got her going. So, for those interested here it is (remember, this guy's an elder!) :o) He quoted such an uplifting, encouraging scripture, don't you think?? :o) He wrote this after I told him why I decided not to pioneer - that at the time (13 yrs ago), I was thinking I was young, so plenty of time, even though the "end" was lurking around every corner. Here was his response. (the bolding and caps within the bold was mine)

    You mentioned that you "were young and had plenty of time to serve Jah full-time if I so desired at a later date." Do you still think there is a possibility of that? It would seem to me that the longer you are "out," the less likely the chances are that you'll see the urgent need to even come to any meetings or observe the memorial. I don't want you to think I am unsympathetic or don't care about your feelings, cuz I do. I read also of how you decided to do what you thought was best for you. That is important to be true to yourself and make your own decisions. I just wish you could've done that and hung in there. It didn't have to be an all or nothing choice. It pains me to say this but it reminds me of a scripture that you probably know, about how we might think our own way is the best way, but in the end it ends up hurting us.(Prov. 14:12) I wish so much there was some glimmer of hope that you could see the value of coming back. :o) Its not that WE want you to be perfect either. Maybe that is what your parents expected, which is wrong. I don't see the value of running people off by expecting them to live up to perfection, no one can. I have such a hard ,difficult time writing this to you. I hope I haven't offended you by being frank.


    It really bothered me at 1st, but I've calmed down now.

    Bye all! Sorry so lengthy! Thanks again!

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