by snbdye2000 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
can't you just promise to give him blow jobs every week if he quits his "studying" and then go back to being happy and celebrating christmas?
If that doesn't work, how about finding a religion that you find compatible for BOTH of you as a family and ask him to join you in a non-denominational church.
Good luck, my husband has no affiliations with JW's and I told him right up front, if he ever considered it, plan on losing half of everything because i would divorce him. LOL.
can't you just promise to give him blow jobs ..........I told him right up front, if he ever considered it, plan on losing half of everything because i would divorce him. LOL.
BJ's or divorce.... hmmmm...... that's a no brainer!
Your husband already shows signs of loss of his integrity - ask him why he's talking about slavery ? Does he want to be a slave ? Is he vying to be the slave of a slave ? What's going on here?
Plainly have him know that the name of God isn't jehovah - that's simply an identifying word compiled by men - and in their language they describe this god as a dictating control freak who will backhand or kill those who don't obey - this is an imaginary figure who is simply like a beast, given life by those who adhere to that belief in fear.
Is God that, or is God "I am who I am" ? - if his yes be yes and his no, no, he may be a free man. Baptised in His name, I am who I am.
Thanks everyone for all of your responses, I appreciate it a lot. Today was actually a very good day with my husband and I . He had the day off from work and we spent the better part of it discussing a lot of issues regarding the WTBTS. He says he does want to celebrate Christmas, that I can in fact have a tree up and buy presents, etc. He says he really enjoys it and since he's not completely convinced it's wrong, that he cant see not celebrating it. He said I brought up something weeks ago about him needing to read the JW books that really has had him thinking. In that conversation, I was arguing with him that he does not need the JW books to learn the Bible. He countered with the story about the ethiopian - word for word like his JW friend explained it to him. I told him that he was completely wrong - that in that story, the ethiopian only needed to understand that Jesus was the Messiah. Once he knew that, he was babtized and left on his own. No book studies, no nothing. Apparenly my husband has been studying about what I said and now believes I am correct. He told me tonight that it makes him wonder what else he has been led to believe that isnt right. He claims he is going to give back all the books and not meet with the jw anymore. That he just wants to read the Bible on his own and come up with his own beliefs. That in his reading, it will either confirm his beliefs or show him where he is wrong. I asked him what is driving him to believe them, and he said because it's the only religion he has found that believes like him...mainly that Jesus is not God, no eternal hell/punishment, and that we will not be going to heaven. He said he absolutely does not believe in the blood issue, does not believe there is a seperate annointed class and after showing him things you all have previously written, that there is not a seperate faithful and discreet slave. He does not believe any one religion has all the answers. So we'll see what happens. In past experience, he tends to get "convinced" by the jw at his work how wrong he is when he changes his mind about continuing to study with them. I'm hopefull he will stay true to the things he has said today and wont let this guy convince him otherwise. He thinks I just want to get him to believe like I do...and although I would like that, it's no big deal to me. I told him that I will respect his beliefs, if they are coming truly just from his heart, and not being "led" to believe those things because he wont put down the JW books. I told him that I will respect his beliefs, but that I will fight like mad to keep the jw's out of our lives. I asked him if he wouldnt do the same if I were to start studying with Mormons or some religion like that. He laughed and said yes he would. So for now there's a little peace in this house, and I'm not so scared of him becoming a jw. But I wont put down my guard, that's for sure. If I hadnt done that a year ago, we might not be where we are! But thanks to all of you, it helps having people to talk with that know what I'm talking about. Unless someone has been directly involved with this group, they just cant relate to any of this. I'll keep you all posted.
snbdye
Wow. That's a wonderful report. Actually I've run across a website that talks about some of the doctrines that your husband holds dear in his association with the Witnesses. Here's the link (another link!) and an exerpt:
Eternal punishment doctrine:
J-Ws have a cherished belief regarding the wicked. Briefly they believe the wicked are never resurrected, they never experience any suffering for what they have done. Instead they cease to exist when they die. I do not know of any evangelical Christians who have the same identical belief as J-Ws. However, there is an increasing number of evangelicals who are reaching the conclusion that although the wicked may suffer for a time they will ultimately be destroyed (or annihilated) because immortal consciousness is conditional upon being a believer (thus the name - Annihilationism or Conditional Immortality).
This view is certainly a minority view, some even consider it to be heresy. But the following evangelical Bible scholars and commentators believe it in one form or another: John Stott (Evangelical Essentials, 1988 pages 313-320), John Wenham (The Goodness of God, 1974; Universalism and the Doctrine of Hell, 1991, chapter 6: The Case for Conditional Immortality), Stephen Travis (I Believe in the Second Coming of Jesus, 1982), Philip Hughes (The True Image: The Origin and Destiny of Man in Christ, 1989), Clark Pinnock (The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent, 1990), and Michael Green (Evangelism through the Local Church, 1992). Also see my article on this.
You do not need to give the impression you embrace this concept. But I strongly recommend you mention that there is a significant number of Bible scholars and commentators who believe the wicked will ultimately be brought to a state of eternal unconsciousness when all suffering will cease. As mentioned above, the reason I recommend telling this is because J-Ws love this doctrine and imagine they alone believe this. When they see there are other persons like them in the Christian community with the same feelings, they are more open to leaving the Watchtower. Once free of the Watchtower's authority they are more able to examine what the Bible says about the punishment of the wicked and then decide for themselves.
If appropriate you could mention a few scriptures that challenge the Watchtower's explanations:
There is a spirit that leaves the body at death and goes somewhere. They may feel this spirit is not conscious but at least it does continue to exist and returns to that person in the resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Psalm 31:5
Luke 23:46
Acts 7:59
Philippians 1:23
2 Corinthians 5:2-8
Hebrews 12:23
Luke 8:55
After the resurrection, those whom Jesus judges as wicked based on their past sins will experience some suffering in the future.
2 Corinthians 5:10
Revelation 22:18
Matthew 18:5-10
Mark 9:42-48
Hebrews 10:26-30
Matthew 8:11,12
Matthew 24:51
Luke 13:27-29
Heaven / Paradise Earth:
The other issue, Jesus not being God, is much more involved, obviously. Although there are many people in various churches as well as many people on this board who don't believe this. There is some great info on the biblicalanswers.net website on this. Although I personally have not read it, the book "In Search for Christian Freedom" by Ray Franz sounds like a good one to read on why it is acceptable to have a measure of freedom in our Christian lives. Mr Franz himself, as I understand, does not accept the Trinity doctrine, yet from what I've heard he is a great example of a faithful Christian.Actually the belief that Jesus will rule a populated paradise earth for 1000 years is taught among conservative evangelical Christians as in: Nelson's Introduction to the Christian Faith (1995), page 285 (article entitled "The Millennium" by Grant Osborne); Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth (1975) pages 164-167; David Jeremiah's Escape The Coming Night, Vol 4 pages 45-48, 71-72 (1994) and his radio show "Turning Point".
...
It is not necessary for you agree with this view but it would be helpful to tell the J-Ws that you are aware of this belief that people will live on earth forever in paradise and it is taught within conservative evangelical Christianity (for example the above quotation from Charles Stanley's Eternal Security). The reason it is advisable to tell the J-Ws this is because when J-Ws feel challenged on other issues, they will usually try to resolve their discomfort by thinking "We may not have the right understanding on this issue but I KNOW we are right about the paradise earth and ONLY Jehovah's Witnesses believe in this so this MUST be the only true religion." But if you have informed the J-W that many Christians believe it and it is taught in Christian books, on radio (David Jeremiah's show Turning Point), and Christian TV (Charles Stanley) they will be shaken.
Almost forgot: Someone on another thread mentioned the Alpha Course: http://alphacourse.org as a great, non-threatening setting to explore and discuss Biblical topics and Christianity. It may be an alternative setting where your husband can get feedback on his thoughts regarding the Bible and Christianity, instead of only getting it from that pesky JW guy. I heard it really worked out well for others on this board who were in a similar situation as you and your husband.
Hi snbdye,
Glad to hear that your husband is beginning to listen to reason from you. You definitely should keep on top of this, though, because if he becomes a JW it will mean untold heartache for both of you, and probably divorce. I speak from experience.
A couple of things in addition to the excellent comments above:
The JW concept of "the anointed" is a fuzzy idea that is never, and cannot be, clearly explained, because to clearly explain it would be to show that it's a ridiculous idea, both biblically and practically. Others can comment more on this, but the point I want to make is that in practice, JW leaders (namely, the men who comprise the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses) don't believe that there are more than a few hundred JWs in the world who really are of this "anointed class", and most of these live in the New York area. While JWs give lip service to the idea that every member of the "anointed class" (the Watchtower Society's own figure is that there are about 8,000 of them worldwide) contributes to the "spiritual feeding of the household of faith", JW leaders simply don't pay attention to anyone outside a small circle of men in their Brooklyn headquarters, men who are mostly non-"anointed". The phrase "the anointed remnant as represented by the Governing Body" is a good illustration of the mindset of the JW GB. It literally means that only this handful of men determines what the entire JW community believes and practices. So in practice, "the anointed" class that "feeds the sheep" is comprised only of the few men of the JW Governing Body. Most JWs are only subconsciously aware of this.
If you really want to get your husband to see how JWs are thoroughly dishonest in their presentation of some of their beliefs, all you need to do is arrange for some knowledgeable JW critic to sit down with your husband's JW friend and let them discuss various idiotic JW beliefs and practices, with your husband looking on. The JW will almost certainly get angry at some point, and will most certainly try to put off answering many charges. Your husband would have to be completely blind not to see them for what they are.
Alternatively, you could arrange for someone on this board to discuss JW matters with your husband by phone. There's nothing like hearing it from the horse's mouth, right? Plenty of people on this board can give examples from their own lives of how the JW religion screwed them over, and others can show all sorts of things where the Watchtower has lied to the JW community and to outsiders. If you'd like me to talk to him, PM me.
AlanF
snbdye2000
actually there are other Christian religions out there that believe that Jesus isn't God. That, he's in the God family, but he is Gods son and not God himself.And that we don't go to Heaven or hellfire upon death. Church of God Seventh day. And Church of God International ar two Iknow of. They can be researched on the web.I have heard the are about 15 other groups. i just can't name them off hand.
The JW's don't have the monopoly on that belief. They just try and control you more with theirs. My sister and her kids are absolutely loyal and controlled by the organisation. I think because we were so insecure as kids and had no true family togetherness. I think it makes her secure being with them. They tell her what to think, what to do, how to raise her kids. Who she can and can't see.She likes the way they stick together and shun the outside world.
She's so loyal and programmed, that even though they have changed a great many of their doctrnes and prophesies. She refuses to obey God and prove all things. No matter what truth is put before her of their "flip flops" and false predictions,By the way, thier own past literature condemns them, so they refuse to read any older literature. They're told not to.I'm not sure how far back of literature they're allowed to read.
she was so adamant about some of her beliefs
18 years ago when she joined them. Swore they were true and given to them by God and therefore set in stone. Have now been changed or discarded altogether.
All she'll say about it when I ask her is, ,"Well, we have new light" Talk about being brainwashed.
Cheryl
