John 18 Quid est veritas? - Who was right: Pilate or Jesus?

by Pole 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Pole

  It's a doctrinal question. Of course the Gospel of John may have been written by someone who made this conversation up. But let's assume it really did take place between Pilate and Jesus Christ.

  John 18

  37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
  Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

  38"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him.

  Let's also assume for the sake of the discussion that the usual interpretation of the passage is correct: Pilate is a relativist doubter and Jesus acts as the holder of the only revealed truths available in the entire Universe.

  I remember when I was an active JW, I used this passage to make my doubts of relativist/soliptic nature go away. I used to think "Ha, aren't I showing Pilate's attitude?" Because I thought it a very sinful thing to do, such an "explanation" would do for me for some time.

  When I was finally able to consider religious issues myself rather than accept ready-made answers, I began to think: "Yes, I'm showing "Pilate's attitude" and it's pretty much in accordance with my feelings."

  My question: How many of you are ready to take Pilate's side? Sounds blasphemous, but if you had been in Pilate's shoes would you have given a similar reply? Or do you still believe in divinely revealed truths, and you are still "on the side of the truth" as Jesus put it?

  Pole
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  googlemagoogle

  i would have probably asked "which truth?" and wouldn't have left so quickly... but then, with the rioting crowd outside and a jesus who according do some gospels didn't talk to pilatus at all, "quid est veritas" sounds like a valid reply...
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  LittleToe

  Pole:Why is it blasphemous?
  It sounds like a valid question, to me...
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  Narkissos

  Friedrich Nietzsche here is worth quoting (The Antichrist, 46):

  The noble scorn of a Roman, before whom the word "truth" was shamelessly mishandled, enriched the New Testament with the only saying that has any value--and that is at once its criticism and its destruction: "What is truth?". . .

  Now I tend to think that the author of the Fourth Gospel is precisely making his point ironically, by putting this interrogative sentence on Pilate's lips. Isn't it exactly the other side of the positive yet esoterical assertion "I am the truth" ?
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  Pole

  LT,

  Pole:Why is it blasphemous?
  It sounds like a valid question, to me...

  Just a little disclaimer not to scare some believers away

  Did anyone read Bulgakov's "The Master and Margarita"? It's interesting how the Pilate-Jesus conversation is depicted there :)

  Pole
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  OldSoul

  It is foreign to me to regard any question as invalid or blasphemy. If God had not wanted us to question, He could certainly have seen to it we didn't.

  I don't want this to be taken as my being petty or rude - so, please just chalk it up to rough honesty - I think it is hilarious that so many people are blaming their former inability to think for themselves on... well, anything other than the true cause. In doing so, you still overlook a very basic reality of human existence.

  Wherever you believe it came from, you have free will and you always have had it. No one ever stole it from you, because no one can. You have used it as you saw fit. For whatever reason you did so, it was your choice. If you have now made a different choice, why must delight in having done so be labored by so much regret over having chosen less well in the past?

  Respectfully,
  B_Ing Invisible
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  Pole

  OldSoul,

  I think it is hilarious that so many people are blaming their former inability to think for themselves on... well, anything other than the true cause. In doing so, you still overlook a very basic reality of human existence.

  I'm not sure what you are referring to exactly. Are you criticising the fact that I changed my mind about the Pilate-Jesus conversation as it is recorded in the Bible? Are you saying I'm blaming someone/something for my views? Please, show me where. Here is what I wrote:

  When I was finally able to consider religious issues myself rather than accept ready-made answers, I began to think: "Yes, I'm showing "Pilate's attitude" and it's pretty much in accordance with my feelings."

  All I said was that it took me some time to shake off WTS views and think for myself. What's so hilarious about it?

  More relevantly, do you share Pilate's views on the truth?

  Respectfully,

  Pole
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  czarofmischief

  during my youth, I of course espoused the typical witness dogma that truth was universal, concrete, immutable, and therefore fully revealed to his servants the Witnesses.

  After that began to break up under its own weight, I found myself in a nihilist funk. There was no truth but oblivion. Truth was irrelevant.

  Now I have gradually come back to believe in a God who cares. But as for human understanding, well, that's all relevant to time and circumstance. Hence, I guess I side more with Pilate. Mostly because Jesus was proven wrong in the long run about his kingdom, his return, etc. What is truth? It is a thing that changes, comes and goes, and dies like anything else.

  Jesus also said something interesting about the truth being "in" somebody, as though it had been planted from the outside. Thus the Calvinist doctrine of predestined Elect makes a bit more sense to me; it's a way to grasp the vast intellectual gulf between believer and unbeliever. What could account for such a fundamental difference in opinion than the workings of the Holy Spirit?

  CZAR
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  M.J.

  I think that humans pondering real truths about an unlimited God is kind of like that old Far-Side comic where dog scientists are shown to be pondering the revolutionary yet fleeting concept known as "the doorknob principle". It isn't anyone's place to arrogantly declare they have truly "got it". I try to use the Bible as a guide but I'm realizing more and more that I am far from knowing all the answers.
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  frankiespeakin

  Nark,

  Now I tend to think that the author of the Fourth Gospel is precisely making his point ironically, by putting this interrogative sentence on Pilate's lips. Isn't it exactly the other side of the positive yet esoterical assertion "I am the truth" ?

  The question was never answered. Typical evengelical style if you ask me (ie.. Those who love the lord look for the smallest opening to give a witness even in vague answers to questions).

  I'm also woundering what the author had in mind by having Jesus proclaim he was the enbodiment of truth. Or was it just something mystical to say that would have appeal to that community as they understood that they had that mystical truth.