SCHOLAR 'talk' to Ray about Carl Olof Jonsson

by one 45 Replies latest jw friends

  • Schizm
    egypt and other powerfull nations dont count?

    Yes, Egypt certainly does count as one of the kings which has/will exercised Universal Rule. However, the 2nd and 7th chapters of Daniel merely account for the particular kings that figured into the scheme of things from Daniels day forward. The 2 visions didn't take into account history prior to Daniel's day.


  • Schizm
    It's 10 horns represent the kingdoms that have inherited World Rule from the time that Rome fell down to the present day. They together make up the 7th king of Bible prophecy

    Can you explain how 10 separate kings can also be a '7th king'? What you've just described is the same kind of end-time nonsense the Watchtower is famous for.

    My particular understanding, that the 10 horns are ONE of the 7 kings, is no different than the 2 horns of the Ram (Da 8) being ONE of the 7 kings. The same can be said for the 4-horned goat. All 4 of the goat's horns shared in the rule of the ONE king, Greece.

    I won't get into the rest of your questions for the moment ... after all, you did say: "Let me ask you one simple question."


  • Undecided

    This discussion reminds me of a public talk I gave back in the 50s explaining all this crap. I can hardly remember any of it now because I think it's all a bunch of nonsense.

    Ken P.

  • Schizm


    Doesn't your handle describe you to a "Tee"? How is it then that you presume to be an expert on "crap"?


  • City Fan
    City Fan


    "Let me ask you one simple question."

    And I did. Come on Schizm, you can answer it. Which kingdom is the last one actually named in the book of Daniel? (Dan 11:2). You can answer it, you know you can. It's easy, even for you!


  • czarofmischief

    Rome did NOT rule "without competition." Ever hear of Parthia? Kicked Rome's ass around for a while. Carthage? Fell eventually, but it came close to crushing them a couple of times.

    Sure Rome had great press, and some serious advantages, but it FELL and it only ruled a fourth of the earth to begin with. Ghenghis Khan ruled more. GREAT BRITAIN ruled more. And what caused mighty Rome to fall? Some Germans with pickaxes, braids, and bad breath!

    Not to mention the centuries that passed when Rome ruled in competition with Constantinople. In essence, competing against itself.

    Plus there is this myth that the "pax Romana" was a peaceful time. There were ALWAYS little wars going on somewhere? The Jugurthine war? The Rebellion of Judea? Not to mention civil wars every fifty years or so.

    Rome did not rule as long as Egypt, as harshly as Assyria, as sweepingly as Alexander, or as permenently as the Chinese. The Aztecs and the Mayans were just irritating flyspecks on the eyebulb of prophecy, huh?

    Stop it. The prophecy of the four beasts was directed at the GREEK descendants of the GREEK empire that conquered Judea and their Persian forefathers. The little horn that became mighty was picturing one of the greasers the Maccabees waxed. JUST STOP IT! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!


  • one


    hoy cow i need a semester to assimilate all your stuff,

    semester did not star yet as i am heading toward, you know where, (my urine lab.) "they" are wating for me.

    i wil revisit this thread

    as i never got around to say hello to the chinese people, Ghenghis Khan and company history was/is not my favorite subject, but i do have curiosity. History, they say, repeat itself and i dont wnat it to catch me offguard.

    BEDsides, I did not say there was no "competition" for Rome, it was a liberal non noneducated guess about the possible content of book.

    I know i am entittle to an opinion on this topic but ithing i have tried not to make use of such privilege.

    I dont have the need to be exposed as an ignorant... i already know that.

  • binadub

    Carl does post, and does debate, on the website:

    If you're interested.


  • Leolaia

    The language in the various visions parallel each other:

    "Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, for iron breaks and smashes everything, and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay" (Daniel 2:39-43).
    "Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws, the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time" (Daniel 7:19, 23-25).
    "I saw [the goat] attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him; the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power. The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven. Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground. Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled-the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the abomination that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?' He said to me, 'It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated'...The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people" (Daniel 8:7-14, 21-24).
    "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' [i.e. for 3 1/2 years] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Daniel 9:26-27).
    "Three more kings will appear in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece. Then a mighty king will appear, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases. After he has appeared, his empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the power he exercised, because his empire will be uprooted and given to others....[The king of the North] will determine to come with the might of his entire kingdom and will make an alliance with the king of the South. And he will give him a daughter in marriage in order to overthrow the kingdom, but his plans will not succeed or help him....His successor will send out a tax collector to maintain the royal splendor. In a few years, however, he will be destroyed, yet not in anger or in battle. He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not been given the honor of royalty...He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. He will also invade the Beautiful Land...His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him....The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place...From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days" (Daniel 11:2-4, 17, 20-21, 36, 40-41; 12:11-12).

    (1) fourth kingdom = fourth beast = goat = kingdom of Greece, and specifically its first king. The fourth kingdom in the statue is of IRON, the fourth beast has IRON teeth. The fourth kingdom CRUSHES, the fourth beast CRUSHES. The fourth beast TRAMPLES UNDERFOOT, the goat TRAMPLES the ram. The goat was very GREAT at the height of its POWER, the "mighty king" of Greece "rules with GREAT POWER". (2) This kingdom is then "broken" and "divided" into four (cf. Alexander's four generals) or two (the southern Ptolemies and the northern Seleucids). The kingdom of iron and clay is a DIVIDED kingdom. The fourth beast will give rise to TEN KINGS out of the original kingdom. The goat has his horn BROKEN off and the kingdom is DIVIDED TO THE FOUR WINDS. In the case of the "kingdom of Greece," Alexander's empire is BROKEN UP and PARCELED OUT TO THE FOUR WINDS. (3) The two descendent kingdoms cannot form an alliance restoring the original kingdom. In the statue vision, the kingdom of iron and clay is described as a MIXTURE and will not remain UNITED, any more than iron mixes with clay. In the great vision of ch. 11, the kings of the two kingdoms of the North and South will try to MAKE AN ALLIANCE and MARRY between the kingdoms, but these efforts are really to overthrow each other's kingdoms. (4) another horn = little horn = another king = Antiochus Epiphanes. In the vision of the four beasts, AFTER THEM, ANOTHER KING WILL ARISE. In the vision of the goat, OUT OF THEM came ANOTHER HORN that starts out SMALL but grows, meaning that a stern-faced king WILL ARISE. In the great vision, the earlier kings are SUCCEEDED by a CONTEMPTIBLE PERSON (Antiochus Epiphanes) who starts out NOT AS ROYALTY but will gain power. (5) This king makes war with the surrounding countries. In the vision of the four beasts, this king will SUBDUE THREE KINGS. In the vision of the goat, he causes astounding DEVASTATION in THREE areas: the SOUTH, the EAST, and the BEAUTIFUL LAND. In the great vision of ch. 11, this king INVADES MANY COUNTRIES and INVADES THE BEAUTIFUL LAND. (6) This king ceases oblation and sacrifice, desecrates the Temple, and blasphemes the Most High. In the vision of the four beasts, this king SPEAKS AGAINST THE MOST HIGH, OPPRESSES the SAINTS, and changes LAWS. In the vision of the goat, this king took away DAILY SACRIFICE, took the HOST of the SAINTS, and set up the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the SANCTUARY. In the vision of the 70 weeks, this king DESTROYS the SANCTUARY, PUT AN END TO SACRIFICE and OFFERING, and set up the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the TEMPLE. In the great vision, his army DESECRATES THE TEMPLE, sets up the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, ABOLISHES DAILY SACRIFICE, and EXALTS HIMSELF AGAINST GOD. (7) The duration of this desecration is for about 3 1/2 years. Thus, in the vision of the four beasts, the saints will be handed over to him for A TIME, TIMES, AND HALF A TIME. In the vision of the goat, the desecration and cessation of daily sacrifice is to last 2,300 MORNINGS AND EVENINGS, or 1150 days (= 3 years and 55 days). In the vision of the 70 weeks, the desecration starts at the MIDDLE of the last SEVEN years -- that is, for 3 1/2 years. In the great vision, it is 1,290 DAYS to 1,330 DAYS from the time daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination is installed. Historically, it was about 3 1/2 years between the time Antiochus desecrated the Temple in 167 BC to 164 BC when the Temple was restored.

    While there are minor problems here and there in the details (e.g. 13 Seleucid and Ptolemy kings preceding Antiochus IV instead of 10), all five of these visions corroborate each other in describing the same thing in similar language. Even without looking at the evidence for the earlier kingdoms of Media and Persia, the information about the fourth kingdom and its divided iron-and-clay successor can only best fit in the details the events of the Grecian/Macedonian empire of Alexander the Great and his Seleucid and Ptolemy successors. The exquisite detail in the great vision, which can only refer to the Seleucids and Ptolemies and the exploits of Antiochus IV, especially corroborates the identities of the "horn" kings of the fourth beast and the horns of the goat in the other visions. There is also no room for another kingdom to follow the Seleucids and Ptolemies. In ch. 2, the kingdom of iron and clay is destroyed by the Messianic Kingdom, and in the great vision, the death of Antiochus IV is followed by Michael "standing up" (e.g. assuming power) and the commencement of the resurrection. Since these visions are mutually linked by the same themes mentioned above, only by shifting them to an inappropriate kingdom (e.g. the Romans) or by dissolving these mutual links would there be room for another kingdom -- let alone many more.

  • Schizm
    "Let me ask you one simple question."

    And I did. Come on Schizm, you can answer it. Which kingdom is the last one actually named in the book of Daniel? (Dan 11:2). You can answer it, you know you can. It's easy, even for you!


    Why should I continue to answer questions that you've asked when you completly ignore the answers that I give. The "one" question that you quote yourself on was actually your 2nd question, as it was preceeded by another question that you had asked. I did for a fact answer that first question. Before I go on to another of your questions, I expect you to deal with the answer I gave to your first question. If you don't want to do that, then get lost ... after first kissing my ass.


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