The Cross and the Passover

by Greenpalmtreestillmine 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DevonMcBride
    DevonMcBride

    Micah 5:2

    (KJV) "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Christians say that since Jesus came from Bethlehem, the verse refers to him.

    Historical Context is the problem with this interpretation. Even if Jesus was born in Bethlehem (which is uncertain), he did not fulfill the second part of the verse -- Jesus was never a ruler ("moshel") in Israel.

    Christians answer that he was some kind of virtual or spiritual ruler, but the word "moshel," in the 13 places I find it in the Bible, always refers to visible physical power. Without at least one other use of the word to indicate non-visible authority, this answer is weak.

    Christians also answer that Jesus will be the ruler when he returns. But with that claim, they apparently agree that in fact he has not fulfilled the prophecy at this time, but that they think he will in the future. As the Tanach does not speak of any second coming of Messiah, even that hope has little basis.

    "If the verse does not refer to Jesus' birth in Bethlehem, who does it refer to?" Frankly, asking that question reveals unfamiliarity with the Hebrew Scripture or Jewish history. From Bethlehem comes one of the greatest and most famous rulers of Israel -- King David. The verse may indeed be messianic, refering to Messiah through his ancestor David (similar to Isaiah's reference to David's father, Jesse, to indicate the Davidic line). Or the prophet may be referring to David himself.

    But, since it talks about an obvious ruler, the verse really cannot refer to Jesus.

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Narkissos,

    Actually the way you build up your own suggestion is quite similar to the Gospel pattern of writing: with the general Passover typology in mind, you naturally come to associate the lamb's blood on the wooden doorpost to Jesus' blood on the wooden cross. This leads you (1) to add the narrative detail explicitly ("the cross was stained on three spots") and (2) to make the Passover connection explicit ("as the blood of the lamb...").

    You make it seem as if it's somehow not honest or wrong to look at things from a personal viewpoint and to come to natural conclusions based on that veiwpoint. The U.S. is politically divided because based on their personal viewpoints Americans came to different natural conclusions about whether or not President Bush should be the Commander and Chief for another 4 years. .

    Our personal political views color our political conclusions, but that in itself does not make every conclusion we come to either right or wrong.

    Our personal views on the Bible also color our conclusions about that book, but that also in itself does not make every conclusion we come to with regard to the Bible either right or wrong.

    If there is some mention of the blood/doorposts/cross similarity in early Christian literature, I am not aware of it. But as you say there could very well be one somewhere. But the fact that it is not in the Bible reveals that the notion of the Gospel writers searching throughout the OT to retrieve any details they could use to support their writings, is to say the least, suspect.

    Truth is rarely black and white.

    Sabrina

  • DevonMcBride
    DevonMcBride

    Devon: What are " the real, clearly identifiable, messianic prophesies of the Old Testament"?

    The Messiah must fill all Messianic Prophecies. These are very specific prophecies and no where does it mention it will be done in more than one coming.

    He must be Jewish: Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17
    A member of the tribe of Judah: Isaiah 11:1
    A descendant of King David: Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 33:16-18, I Chronicles 17:9-11, II Samuel 7:12-16, Psalms 89:29-38
    He must also be a descendant of King Solomon: I Chronicles 22:9,10, II Chronicles 7:16-20
    He can not be a descendant of Jeconiah: Jeremiah 22:24-30
    Lineage is established only through the biological father (for line/tribe):
    Tribal lineage: Numbers 36
    Kingship lineage: Genesis 49:10, I Kings 11:4, I Chronicles 17:11-19
    Priesthood lineage (the messiah comes from the line of David, so he can not be a High Priest): Exodus 28:4, 29:9-30, 30:30, 40:15 Jesus does not have a "biological" father so this obviously does not apply to him

    All Jews will be gathered in Israel: Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 27:12-13 Jesus did not fulfill thisAlso see Jeremiah 19:15, 23:3, Zechariah 10:6, Ezekiel 37:21-22, Jeremiah 30.3

    Holy Temple will be rebuilt on Temple Mount in Jerusalem: Ezekiel 37:24-28
    Also see Ezekiel 40-48, Isaiah 33:20, Micah 4:1 Jesus did not fulfill this

    He will bring world Peace: Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3 Jesus did not fulfill this

    All Weapons Of War Will Be Destroyed: Ezekiel 39:9 Jesus did not fulfill this

    All Warfare Will Cease: Isaiah 2:4 Jesus did not fulfill this

    There will be Universal Knowledge of one G-d: Jeremiah 31:33, Zechariah 8:23, 14:9, 14:16, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9 Jesus did not fulfill this

    He will bring physical restoration to all who are sick or disabled in any way: Isaiah 35:5-6 Jesus did not fulfill this

    Nor did Jesus fulfill any of these prophecies:

    Messiah will be preceded by Elijah: Malachi 3:23-24 (4:4-5 in christian translations)

    The Nations Will Help the Jews Materially: Isaiah 60:5, 60:10-12, 61:6

    Eternal Joy and Gladness Will Characterize the Jewish Nation: Isaiah 51:11

    The Jews Will Be Sought For Spiritual Guidance: Zechariah 8:23

    The Egyptian River Will Run Dry: Isaiah 11:15

    Trees Will Yield New Fruit Monthly in Israel: Ezekiel 47:12

    Each Tribe of Israel Will Receive It's Inheritance: Ezekiel 47:13-14

    The Enemy Dead Will Be Buried: Ezekiel 39:12

    He will accomplish these tasks before tiring or failing: Isaiah 42:4

    Death Will Cease: Isaiah 25:8

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    The pillars, the strength, of my house, myself, carry the blood of the lamb and the angel of death (eg visiting witnesses) passes over without any harm befalling.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Sabrina,

    You make it seem as if it's somehow not honest or wrong to look at things from a personal viewpoint and to come to natural conclusions based on that veiwpoint.

    I'm really sorry if I came across like that. That's definitely not what I was trying to say. I found your reasoning interesting because I think it is a living illustration of how the Gospels were written in the first place. I would call that "intertextual creativity" -- not a negative expression in my book. That's just how exegesis worked from late Antiquity and throughout the Middle-Ages.

    If there is some mention of the blood/doorposts/cross similarity in early Christian literature, I am not aware of it. But as you say there could very well be one somewhere. But the fact that it is not in the Bible reveals that the notion of the Gospel writers searching throughout the OT to retrieve any details they could use to support their writings, is to say the least, suspect.
    On this I don't agree, because "intertextual creativity" is potentially infinite. Every generation among the Church Fathers and Doctors came up with OT-NT connections that the previous generations hadn't made. But all were using the same kind of approach.
  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Devon,

    As much as I agreed with you that the Christians' "OT messianic prophecies" are out of context, I think you now ruin your demonstration by presenting as "true Messianic prophecies" a list of texts which are equally out of context. Most of those are only "Messianic" in the pharisaic-rabbinical perspective, not in their original context.

    I'll just take two examples:

    Deuteronomy 17:15 refers to the (apparently) historical succession of kings (Saul, David, etc.), not to "the Messiah" as a unique end-time character. The idea of such an eschatological character came out much later (as the Dead Sea Scrolls show, in the last centuries BC, and even then there was a priestly, Aaronic messianism alongside the Davidic messianism).

    Among the OT texts which come quite close to the Messianic idea are Haggai (2:20-23) and Zechariah (4; 6:9-13). But the Messianic candidate in those texts is none other than Zerubbabel, who happens to be a descendent of Jechoniah-Jehoiachin, in spite of Jeremiah 22!

    Bottom line: to me, the so-called "messianic prophecies" in both Christian and Rabbinic literature read messianism into the Hebrew Bible.

  • DevonMcBride
    DevonMcBride
    Bottom line: to me, the so-called "messianic prophecies" in both Christian and Rabbinic literature read messianism into the Hebrew Bible

    I agree with you on this and pointed out the Messianic prophecies to justify my original point that the Gospels took OT prophecies out of context.

    When reading Deut. 17:15 from the Hebrew scriptures it is not out of context as this scripture is about the lineage of the Messiah and when read in full context of the chapter, the meaning of it has not changed. Whether Deut 17 is Jewish superstition or divine inspiration is another point.

    Devon

  • heathen
    heathen

    I think the whole concept of the smearing of blood on the door posts and accross the lintel and comparing it to how jesus died is riddiculous . True the lamb was slaughtered much like the referrence to jesus being slaughtered and the blood of christ has the very same type of signifigance to salvation but there are 2 door posts on a door frame and could not possibly signify a cross and jesus blood was spilled in more than 3 spots . When the roman soldier pierced him they scourged him and put a crown of thorns on his head , I think those are also areas where is blood was dripping .

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Narkissos,

    Every generation among the Church Fathers and Doctors came up with OT-NT connections that the previous generations hadn't made. But all were using the same kind of approach.

    That does not belie the fact that the Gospel writers, men who are by some accused of dishonestly using the OT to confirm their supposedly false accounts, did not inlude all the significant similarities or connections in their writings. They apparently did not do a good job of finding all the "false" similarities they could have. This from Jews, mind you, men who knew the OT backwards and forwards.

    I respectfully submit: you are attempting to obfuscate the fact that they did not go willy-nilly haunting about the OT for false evidence. If they had they would have included the blood/doorpost/cross and other significant evidences to their supposed false story.

    Sabrina

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Isaiah 53

    The chapter describes a servant ("eved") whose condition is not happy -- a "suffering servant.". The central question is, who is this servant. To answer this question we need to know who is the speaker of the different verses. Christians assume that the speaker in Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel or, even more generally, is all of us. However, by starting with the previous chapter, where this particular episode about the "servant" actually begins, we see in verse 15 that the speakers are the kings of other nations.

    Isaiah 52 (KJV) 9 Burst into songs of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem, for the LORD has comforted his people, he has redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God. 11 Depart, depart, go out from there! Touch no unclean thing! Come out from it and be pure, you who carry the vessels of the LORD. 12 But you will not leave in haste or go in flight; for the LORD will go before you, the God of Israel will be your rear guard.

    A narrator, probably either God or the prophet Isaiah

    13 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

    This speaker must be God.

    14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness-- 15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

    Probably God still speaking here.

    Isaiah 53 (KJV)1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    These are the words of the kings mentioned in Isaiah 52:15

    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    Either God or the kings are speaking here.

    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    God speaking here.

    The first problem with relating all this to Jesus is that the KJV of Chapter 53 has several translation problems. Verses 3 and 4 speak of the servant's "grief" but the Hebrew word here is "choli" -- "sick" Verse 3 says "we hid as it were our faces," as if the speakers were embarrassed by the servant' appearance, but the Hebrew "mistar" is singular -- the suffering servant arouses contempt just like someone who hides his face. Verse 5 speaks of "stripes," a specific wound resulting from a whipping, but the Hebrew "heverto" is more general -- bruise or injury -- without reference to whip marks. Verse 6 in the KJV reads "the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" but the grammatical structure suggests "wounded him with our sin," the implication being -- not that the servant took on the responsibility for someone else's sin, but rather that what someone else did hurt the servant.

    Additional points about translation: in verse five, rather than "he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities," the prefix "mem" means "from," not "for", i.e. the speakers of the verse hurt the servant, not that he was punished by G-d as a substitute for them. In verse 11, the Hebrew "yatsdeek" means "will make just" (by bringing the Torah), not "will justify (someone's sins by taking their punishment)."

    If you incorporate these different translations into the text, you get a markedly different impression. "He hurt a lot and knew what sickness was" just does not sound like"A man of sorrow and acquainted with grief." "We despised him as someone who hid his face" does not mean the same as "we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised." In short, the almost reflex identification of the chapter with Jesus depends on the translation of the text -- not on the text itself. And to see that in fact the text does not refer to Jesus, we need only to examine the ...

    The second problem is that Jesus doesn't fit several of the details in the chapter. a) As mentioned above, Jesus was never sick. Some say that he was sick during the crucifixion, but physical trauma (e.g. execution) is not considered sickness in the normal sense of the word. b) Jesus had no children. Some say this refers to disciples or spiritual children, but the word "zera" is common in the Tanach and, when applied to people, always means linear descendants, not someone's disciples or followers. c) Jesus was not buried with the wicked. One cannot even say he died with the wicked since the Hebrew "rashaeem" is plural and, according to the crucifixion story, one of the thieves next to him ended up in heaven and so was not wicked. d) Jesus did not have long life. Missionaries say he had long life in heaven, but that, again, is stretching the meaning of the word. e) verse 9 "Nor was there deceit in his mouth." doesn't apply because, according to the gosple accounts, Jesus lied to his family about going to Jerusalem. (John 7:8-10), and lied in saying that he never taught in secret (see John 18:20, vs. Matt. 16:20, Mark 8:30 and others).

    Another point is that a) contrary to verse 2, Jesus is never described as physically unattractive; b) far from being rejected and despised as verse 3 says, the Gospel writers describe him as being popular; c) contrary to verse 7, Jesus did a lot of talking; and d) instead of being non-violent (verse 9), Jesus overturned tables, chased people from their jobs, and promised to bring swords.

    So then, while the first impression on reading a Christian translation of Isaiah 53 may be to think of Jesus, looking deeper shows that the Hebrew text does not sound like Jesus, and the context shows shows many differences from what the Christian Bible says about Jesus.

    Who then is the servant? Though some Jewish scholars have said he will be the Messiah, more likely the chapter does not refer to an individual person at all. Isaiah himself identifies Israel as the servant of HaShem:

    • Chapter 41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"
    • Chapter 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. ... 21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.
    • Chapter 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you (i.e. Cyrus) by your name;
    • Chapter 48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."
    • Chapter 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

    Devin if you are going to cut and paste from countermissionary sites please list the links:

    http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/Isaiah53.html

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