Xander--- I am not impressed because you read a book in your life that seemingly explains everything to the point you feel you are an exspert . I do like to read but still like to use my own interpretations of information . I guess you are forgetting the violence in the world and concluding that since the worlds super powers aren't involved that somehow I am in error to the fact that the UN and the league of nations have little or nothing to do with the peace and security issues they so boldly claim they can bring to mankind . Iraq and Iran were at war for a long time the US was at war with north vietnam and korea which were really being supplied by the chinese . The US is still very concerned over russia having nukes and now north korea and the chinese . You are just assuming that they will always use restraint when it comes to deploying these things and that is just an assumption . The terrorist types the US are hunting now are all over the region of asia and messopotamia and europe not just Iraq and afghanistan and are always recruiting more . They even stated that this is the most tactical war they have ever been involved in because the not knowing who your enemy is .
Studying the "Keep on the Watch!" brochure - The clergy and terrorists!!
Heathen, you are the textbook example of 'missing the forest for the trees'.
I do like to read but still like to use my own interpretations of information
That's well and good, but when your 'own interpretation of information' directly conflicts with established fact, maybe you might want to reconsider your opinion?
I guess you are forgetting the violence in the world and concluding that since the worlds super powers aren't involved that somehow I am in error to the fact that the UN and the league of nations have little or nothing to do with the peace and security issues they so boldly claim they can bring to mankind
And the first thing I need to question is you keep bringing the "League of Nations" into an UN discussion like they were related at all (like a good little JW would, of course).
That's equivelant to arguing that the Article of Confederation and the United States Constitution were different versions of the same thing just because the basic intent was the same (to unify the independant states).
Please, PLEASE do a little more research on a topic before posting about it. Your woeful lack of education in some of these areas is rather embarassing.
Iraq and Iran were at war for a long time the US was at war with north vietnam and korea which were really being supplied by the chinese
Indeed, and that list highlights most of the major conflicts of the 20th century (plus WW1 and WW2, of course). Now, obviously, I know you've studied nothing of pre-20th century history other than what the JWs told you, so you can't accurately answer my next question, but I'll throw it out as a hypothetical, anyway.
How do any of these wars compare to the following:
14-18th Century Wars
(Fun fact! World population peaked at 1 billion as the 19th century dawned. Middle of the 17the century, world population was around 500 million. For most of these wars, the total world population varied from 200,000,000 or so UP TO 500,000,000)
Civil and Domestic Wars
- White Lotus Rebellion (100,000 dead)
- Sainte-Dominique Civil War (160,000 dead)
- Szechwan Revolt (120,000 dead)
- Sino-Dzungar War (600,000 dead)
- Shah Nadir's invasion of Persia (approx 170,000 dead)
- Shimabara Rebellion (approx 100,000 dead)
- Chinese Manchu Conquest (25,000,000 dead)
- French Civil Revolutions 1789-1792 (600,000 dead)
- Razin Rebellion in Volga area (100,000 dead)
- Dnieper Cossack Rebellion (100,000 dead)
- English Civil War (868,000 dead)
- St. Bartholomew's Massacre (100,000 dead nationwide)
- French Catholic-Heugenot Wars (4,000,000 dead)
- Waldensian Persecution (900,000 dead)
- Ivan the Terrible's wars (215,000 dead)
- Peasant's War in Germany (100,000 dead)
- War of the Roses (100,000 dead)
- European Witch Hunts 1400-1800 (500,000 dead)
- Saracen Slaughters in Spain (7,000,000 dead)
- Saxon and Scandanavian 'Conversions' (2,000,000 dead)
- Albigensian Crusade (1,000,000 dead)
International Wars (generally, only military deaths counted below)
- French Revolution 1792 - 1802 (2,030,000 dead)
- Russo-Austro-Turkish War (192,000 dead)
- Seven Years War (1,200,000 dead)
- War of the Austrian Succession (450,000 dead)
- War of the Polish Succession (88,000 dead)
- War of the Spanish Succession (1,324,000 dead)
- War of the League of Augsburg (680,000 dead)
- Ottoman War (384,000 dead)
- Franco-Dutch War (342,000 dead)
- Thirty Years War (2,000,000 battlefield dead, total population drop of 7,500,000)
- Russo-Tatar War (500,000 dead)
- Hundred Years War (185,250 battlefield dead, total population drop of 16,300,000)
- Crusades (2,000,000 - 5,000,000 dead)
Ummm...okay, that's just up to the 18th century. Only getting warmed up!
19th Century Wars
(keep in mind the peak world population at this point was only 1,600,000,000 people - several of these wars on their own killed off quite a substantial fraction of the world's population!)
- Napoleonic Wars (3,500,000 dead)
- Mfecane and the Reign of Shaka (2,000,000 dead)
- 19th Century Slave Trade Wars (5,500,000 dead)
- Taiping Rebellion (20,000,000 - 30,000,000 dead)
- Congo Free State (8,000,000 dead)
- United States 'Indian' Genocide (250,000 dead)
- Indian Thuggee Cult 'Revolt' (500,000 dead)
- Russo-Turkish War 1806-1812 (225,000 dead)
- Javanese War (200,000 dead)
- Russo-Turkish War 1828-1829 (205,000 dead)
- Crimean War (508,000 dead)
- American Civil War (650,000 dead)
- War of the Triple Alliance (610,000 dead)
- Cuban Ten Years War (200,000 dead)
- Franco-Prussian War (750,000 dead)
- Russo-Turkish War 1877-1878 (285,000 dead)
- Cuban Revolution (300,000 dead)
- Mexican Revolution (1,000,000 dead) - 20th century, but pre-1914
Astute historians will, of course, note that I am ommitting a TON of wars. Probably listing only 1/10 or so of the total conflicts from the 11th to the 18th century. Point of fact is that I am only listing conflicts were creater than 100,000 people died. Maybe an arbitrary number to use. After all, the entire world population in the year 1000AD was only 250 million. So when you are talking about 5 million possible deaths in the Crusades, you are actually referring to an entire 2% of the world population dying in ONE 'war'.
Of course, that's really nothing! According to statistics in Lawrence Keeley's War Before Civilization: the Myth of the Peaceful Savage:
- Table 6.2 lists the Percentage of Deaths Due to Warfare. Of the 8 primitive societies that survived long enough to be analyzed by modern demographics, the median indicates that some 15.4% of all primitives, male and female alike, died by warfare. Of the 14 prehistoric cultures excavated and analyzed by archaeologists, the median indicates that about 14.8% of all prehistorics, male and female alike, died by warfare.
- Combining these into a sample group of 22 gives us a median of about 15.1%. The middle one-third of this combined sample runs from 12% to 16%. In practical terms, this means that for every 1,000,000 people who lived outside of a literate state, some 120,000 to 160,000 would eventually be killed in war.
I think you'll find that, excluding WW1 and WW2 (which happened before the UN was formed), we of the 20th and 21st century have done a pretty good job of preventing significant fractions of the global population from dying in war!
It's appropriate then to ask, How many of those wars were instigated by the clergy, as the WTS claims in the brochure.
(Ozzie getting back on topic.)
perhaps if you posted more of the article it might help the discussion . I know first hand that alot of the clergy believe the US is morally obligated to secure freedom in the world for one thing . I think the WTBTS is trying to bring out the persecution they are faced with is because of religious intollerance from governments that are influenced by clergy such as in the nation of georgia where the orthodox church is violently persecuting them or russia or france ......... Hard to say without more quotes here .
xander --- it's ok to agree to disagree . My point was not that the churches of christendom are wreaking more havock than in the past but more that mankind has stated that they can solve the problem of war and that I'm not the least bit convinced that the world is safer than ever because of the WOMD .
perhaps if you posted more of the article it might help the discussion
If you go to Elsewhere's post and click on the download link and then enter the user name and password that he has provided, you will be able to download the entire brochure.
jeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeee they didn't even cite some examples , a fact cannot be established til there is evidence in support of it being a fact . Until then it's a great conspiracy theory I wish they would elaborate on some more . I can see the clergy hard at work in the US in attempts to control the populace through the government , the #1 issue people voted for GW was because they wanted an amendment to the constitution banning gay marriage as designed by the churches , WTH do these people think they are ? I value freedom above all things but these people keep finding ways to control . The american value should be personal rights and freedoms and not limiting them . GW keeps claiming he is a man that wants to represent american values but once again is a wolf in sheeps clothing .