How Reliable are "Messianic" Prophecies?

by gumby 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • gumby

    Bible supporters feel they have an ace-in-the-hole with the discovery of the Dead Dea Scrolls in the 50's that give creedence to the bible book of Isaiah. They feel this book contains "Messianic Prophecies" about Jesus.....hence the bible must be true since Jesus fullfilled these 'particular ' scriptures they use from the book of Isaiah.

    Here are some of the scriptures. Read them, research them, and see if you feel these scriptures actually had anything to do with Jesus. The list is long ,so pick only one if you want.

    The Book of Isaiah predicted that the Messiah would:

    (1) be virgin born (7:14),

    (2) have a forerunner--John the Baptist (40:3-5),

    (3) be worshipped by wise men with gifts (60:3),

    (4) be called a Nazarene (11:1),

    (5) be filled with God's Spirit (11:2),

    (6) be a minister to the Gentiles (9:1-2; 42:1-3),

    (7) be a healer of multitudes (51:4),

    (8) speaks in parables (6:9-10),

    (9) His miracles would not be believed (53:10),

    (10) be rejected by His own nation (53:3),

    (11) be scourged and spit upon (50:6),

    (12) be crucified between two thieves (53:12),

    (13) be buried with the rich (53:9),and

    (14) be given the eternal throne of David. (9:6-7)


  • Narkissos


    None of those is a "prophecy," in the sense of "prediction" of an event in the distant future.

    The very concept of "Messiah" is not part of the Old Testament, it gradually emerged, in many contradictory variants according to the Jewish schools, in the last two centuries BC and the first century AD (i.e. the Christians contributed to it).

    The so-called Messianic "prophecies" are actually Christian interpretations of old texts, regardless of their original setting.

    Btw, the "book of Isaiah" is a complex collection of works written over 3 centuries at least.

  • gumby
    The so-called Messianic "prophecies" are actually Christian interpretations of old texts, regardless of their original setting.

    Oh that's right.....just you go right ahead and ruin all the fun I was going to have by listening to all the "proofs" believers have they establish their faiths on regarding this. Theirs always a tattletale in the crowd.

    Seriously though, this is one area in which it's intresting to try and see the reasoning behind these prophecies in the eyes of scholars and others who defend this. The arguments are weak in all honesty and most being honest will agree.

    Ya Narkmeister. I knew you were a Nark!


  • Narkissos

    I'm sorry Gumby, I didn't mean to spoil the fun... I hope it won't be the case.

    Although I do think before answering the question "does this apply to Jesus?" one should logically ask "is this a prediction for the future?"

    Oh, and thank you for finally getting me to look up the word "nark" in a dictionary...

  • Pole
    (3) be worshipped by wise men with gifts (60:3),

    If this one is a prophecy, it would mean that even poor Satan's actions are damn predestined. Weren't the wise men guided by Satan's star?

    But wasn't it Jehovah who had arranged the whole wise men thing in the first place?

    Or did Jehovah simply "choose to" know those details beforehand?

    In either case Satan was simply set up. And he thought he was freakin' smart when he came up with the Bethlehem star scheme.

  • Leolaia

    Anyone recall the hilarous proof that the Messiah is really a rabbi's pet rooster? It is proven exactly the same way the NT proves that Jesus is the Messiah with OT proof-texts.


    A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery

    My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning. Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.

    1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster [in Hebrew, gbr means both "strong man" and "rooster"] who has seen affliction.' (Lamentations 3:1)

    2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head (r's).' (Lamentations 3:5)

    3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lamentations 3:3)

    4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)

    5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)

    6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jeremiah 32:33)

    7 and 8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Exodus 4:20, Numbers 20:8)

    9 and 10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger' (Lamentations 3:1), and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jeremiah 30:12)

    11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lamentations 3:30)

    12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.' (Lamentations 3:2)

    13. I had him there in the corner as it says, 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lamentations 1:3)

    14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth.' (Isaiah 53:7)

    15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jeremiah 23:25)

    16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lamentations 3:7)

    17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)

    18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)

    19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem. As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)

    20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lamentations 3:8)

    21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Isaiah 53:7)

    22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)

    23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)

    24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)

    25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Isaiah 53:8)

    26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)

    27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zechariah 12:10)

    28 and 29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lamentations 3:4)

    30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lamentations 3:4)

    31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)

    32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ?many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)

    33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lamentations 3:6)

    34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song of Solomon 4:16)

    35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)

    36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Isaiah 53:12)

    37 and 38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lamentations 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)

    39, 40 and 41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deuteronomy 6:11; 8:10; 11:15).

    42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)

    There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.

  • Narkissos

    LOL! I read it a few months ago and was trying to find it...

  • AlmostAtheist

    The "messy-anic" prophecies were part of what made the Bible fall apart for me. "See, it says right here that the Christ would be [whatever the scripture they're pointing to says], and see, right here in Matthew, Jesus is just like that!"

    Except they grab a verse out of nowhere that actually has meaning in its context and in no way suggests a later fulfillment or even any "fulfillment" at all, and apply it to Jesus.

    Does anybody know of a list of prophecies that were known historically to be considered prophecies about a future messiah, prior to Jesus showing up and "fulfilling" them?

  • Leolaia

    Not to mention that the NT depends on the Greek LXX translation (with its mistranslations), and not the original Hebrew....

  • Badger

    I get the biggest kick out of the Antichrist prophesies being tossed around...

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