Long and BORING.
I second that, Yerusalyim.
On a lighter note, Jesus is back and he's dating: http://www.jesus.com
Slipnslidemaster: "Do, or do not. There is no try."
- Yoda
For JWs: Proof! --Jesus' Return In First Century!
by bjc2012 22 Replies latest jw friends
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slipnslidemaster
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MDS
You Know:
I only read down to a certain point on your post, but that was far enough for me. You are way out in left field as far as your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15. The "end" that Paul was talking about is not the end of this system of things, but rather the end of Christ's 1,000-year kingdom. The Watchtower certainly doesn't teach that. Paul plainly said that the "end" is when Christ hands over the kingdom to Jehovah. You obviously are much confused. / You Know
And you are in "right field,"....huh?...following the WTS thoughts on these matters...is that so?
...are you really, on safe ground, You Know?
Lets reason on the matter...
So, You Know, as you said above and as the WTS teaches on the matter, if the "end" is the end of the millenial reign of 1,000 years of peace, if that is the "end" Paul is referring to, then, that would mean Jesus is going to destroy all of human governments "AT THE END" of the millenium. Is that what the WTS teaches, or is that what you teach, personally? Which?
If the "end" Paul refers to, is the "end" of the millenial reign, the one referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:24 where Paul says:
"NEXT THE END, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to his God and Father..."
This is the "end of the millenium", You Know?
You must be joking...
You and WTS are very confused here...it is a ridiculous assumption.
The "End" here Paul is referring to clearly, obviously, literally means the "END" of all human ruled earthly systems...that's it. That's all it can mean. It cannot the "end of the millenium" as you and the WTS have suggested, since Paul includes human "governments, authorities" and "rulerships" being "brought to nothing." And that certainly DOES NOT occur at the "end" of the millenium, the 1,000 year reign of peace.
You and the ill-informed WTS are much mistakened...
Please listen and learn for once in your life...pleaseeeee
JESUS PERFORMS 2 (TWO) GREAT THINGS BEFORE TURNING OVER THE "KINGDOM" -- 1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Paul says there are 2 (two) things that happen, just before Jesus "hands the kingdom over to His Father and God." These 2 (two) events happen IN SUCCESSION, one after the only...Jesus "rules UNTIL" these 2 (two) things happen. Then, his rulership is interrupted and handed back over to Jehovah God, the bible says. Those 2 (two) things are:
1 Corinthians 15:24-26:
"Next, the end [accomplished end, Greek "Telos" NWT footnote] when he hands over the kingdom to His God and Father,
(1) when he has BROUGHT TO NOTHING ALL GOVERNMENT AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet
(2) As the LAST ENEMY, DEATH IS TO BE BROUGHT TO NOTHING." -- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
So, Paul says there are 2 (two) very important things that must be "brought to nothing" before Jesus can conclude his heavenly "rulership." And they are,
1) ALL GOVERNMENT AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER...brought to nothing.
And when does this occur...before the millenium or after?
Answer: BEFORE the millenial reign of Peace starts.
We all agree here, I think.
And Jesus also bring to nothing,
2) ADAMIC "SIN" & "DEATH", UNINTENTIONAL "SIN" & "DEATH" INHERITED FROM ADAM ...brought to nothing -- Jesus removes this tendency completely, the tendency to sin, from sinful mankind and performs a massive, earthwide resurrection of the dead as the Bible has promised for many, many years now. Jesus brings an end to "ADAMIC DEATH by performing a ONETIME, WORLDWIDE EARTHLY RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD FOR MANKIND.
These 2 (two) events, all occur BEFORE the 1,000 reign of peace begans, just as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
DANIEL GIVES US THE ALL-IMPORTANT SEQUENCE
To back this position up, Daniel 11:44 thru 12:3 shows the chronological order of things, as Jesus carries them out, these two events that CANNOT BE SEPARATED, as in one event happens now, and the other event happens LATER...a thousand years later!...this is stupid, but is what the WTS teaches on the matter.
The WTS separates ... yes...separates the events as happening close to 1,000 years apart. The time Jesus destroys human governments and the complete removal of "Adamic Sin" and "Adamic" Death...separated by close to 1,000 years.
This is NOT what Paul said on the matter. The book of Daniel helps us here.
1) First the destruction of all earthly governments, the "King of North" and supporters face off God's Earthly Kingdom Government as represented upon the earth, now a "restored" Israel, renovated and re-energized, refreshed with God's Holy Spirit, the irrepressible "Mountain of Decoration," (take note...no longer a mere "land of Decoration, but much elevated now to God's favor and given God's protection) a people (restored Israel) now fully under God's protection and blessings, now Jesus acts...he completely DEFENDS and DESTROYS all human governments that faced off "Israel," that attack in UNPROVOKED fashion, those that have "planted their palatial tents between God's People and the "Great Sea," to trap them. They are now, rightfully, destroyed by Jesus, for their unprovoked attack...just like described by the attack of "Gog of Magog," in Ezekiel, the prophet, ...and now we can witness the most momemtous event itself,
2) Secondly a massive earthwide resurrection to earthly human life, where Jesus raises "the dead" to PERFECTION in human form. No more "Adamic Sin" since the "dead" are raised as Perfect Human creatures with no trace of "sin" in them at all, completely perfect the same as Adam BEFORE he was tested. As Daniel 12:2 says,
...there will be man of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence."
The WTS calls the above, A "spiritual resurrection" ... that's right, a "spiritual resurrection" ... huh???
Do you believe that, You Know?
Do you?
That would be complete stupidity!
3) Thirdly, Daniel 12:3 shows what happens next, AFTER the Grand Earthy Resurrection Jesus has been performed by saying,
"And the ones having insight [holy ones of the Supreme One] will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars TO TIME INDEFINITE, EVEN FOREVER."
They "shine" forever, and ever. Their "rulership," then does not come to an "end," since they inherit an "indefinitely lasting rulership," -- one that "will not be passed on to others" and one "that will not be brought to ruin" at any time. This kingdom lasts FOREVER! It takes over earth's affairs and "rules" forever and ever. -- See Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 27.
Among those "dead" raised to life are those who have not been "tested" at all by Satan the Devil. These ones must be "tested" AT THE END OF THE 1,000 year reign of peace.
THE TESTING AND RE-TESTING OF THE "GREAT CROWD"
The WTS has said ALL, that's all of those who live thru the 1,000 reign of peace, including the "Great Crowd" must be tested AGAIN, at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace. Which means, some from among the "Great Crowd" could indeed fall, lose their lives at the final test at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace, when Satan is let out.
The "Great Crowd" has already been tested! God has declared them righteous! They stand before God, clean, pure, having their "robes washed in the blood of the lamb," completely acceptable to God, having faced Satan on his own "turf" and have come off victorious! -- See Revelation 7:9-17
To make them, the "Great Crowd" of earthly survivors, face "Satan" again, to be RETESTED...at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace would NOT BE FAIR AT ALL!
The WTS' way of understanding this is completely wrong...totally unfair...the thought, the teaching is totally absurd even!
Jehovah God is smarter than that...
The "Great Crowd" are said in the bible to have "GAINED SALVATION" from Almighty God and the Lamb. But the WTS has said No! They have NOT gained "salvation" at all. This is so because they much be Re-tested by Satan at the "end of the 1,000 year reign of peace." They must be "retested" and they also "FALL" to the antics of Satan too... They die everlastingly, those of the "Great Crowd," because they must be tested AGAIN...the WTS has said.
But, Revelation 7:10 records the "Great Crowd" as saying, yes, "crying out," over and over and over again...
"And they {Great Crowd) keep crying out with a LOUD VOICE...SALVATION WE OWE to our God..."
How can they OWE "SALVATION" to God, if they are completely destroyed by God Himself, at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace, after Satan Re-Tests them again?
How could such a possibility even exist for them, namely, the "Great Crowd" that have been given "Salvation" by the Mighty Hand of God. How can one explain such a twisted way of thinking, I ask?
Truly, the "Great Crowd" have NOT gained any "salvation" at all! -- at least they way you, You Know, and the WTS thinks...
But think, You Know, how can the "Great Crowd" ever be said under inspiration to have gained "SALVATION" ... how, You know?
Revelation 7:16,17 says,
"They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes."
And then Satan is let loose...they follow Satan and are "destroyed" forever by God...
This is a distinct possibility, as taught by the WTS and of course, yourself, You Know.
But, does this make any sense at all to a reasoning person, a rational person? This teaching, this, heartless way of thinking. Does it really make sense at all? -- See Romans 12:1.
Now what makes more sense is to think that Satan is ONLY PRESERVED for the final "test" ONLY for those who are among the resurrected "dead" that have never, ever faced him before as devoted servants of God, fully equipped with the "knowledge of the contents of the scrolls," now, at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace, and can be fully "tested" by Satan and his Demons, to prove them worthy of the privilege of "going to the trees of life," or the title of EVERLASTING LIFE. This is what is referred to at Revelation 20:5 when it says:
"(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)"
The resurrected "dead" in God's eyes, did not come to have the TITLE OF EVERLASTING, or the "gift of everlasting life," until AFTER being "tested" by Satan, at his release from the abyss, at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace.
After this critical "testing" by Satan, and if they stay loyal to God and his Righteous Kingdom Government, the resurrected "dead" could now be said to have gained "life" in the fullest sense of the word, EVERLASTING LIFE and the title and right to go to the "trees of life," ... a precious privilege we recall, DENIED Adam because of his sin while in perfection before God, Jehovah. Adam was never permitted to "go to the trees of life" and "live forever." Because he failed...he failed the "test" of Satan, while in perfection. Simple. -- Genesis 3:22-24
Remember, the WTS separates the events mentioned above namely saying that Jesus destroys all human "Governments" earthwide BEFORE the 1,000 millenial reign of peace. The first part mentioned above.
Then, the WTS separates the second important event, the removal of "death", Adamic death, mankind's great enemy by saying it occurs only DURING the 1,000 year reign of peace. And in so doing, they confuse the situation everyone alive must be "tested" AGAIN, again at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace.
This is completely stupid. Why should God do such a completely stupid thing?
No, he wouldn't.
Satan is only allowed to live and be preserved till the end of the 1,000 year reign, ONLY to "test" the UNTESTED before God...the resurrected "dead" have never, ever faced Satan in the first place. The ones who have finally come to understand the contents of the newly opened "scrolls" and now have learned to live by them. These ones, from among the "dead" that are raised by Jesus, are now in a position to be "tested" by the Great Tempter, the Great "Tester," Satan the Devil and his "demons."
The destruction of all human governments and the resurrection of the dead are going to happen in close succession, in this order as a "one-two" punch action of Jesus. These final two things happen one after the other and cannot be separated as having happened DURING THE COURSE of the 1,000 year reign. Jesus Christ does these things BEFORE the 1,000 reign even begin.
In this way, Jesus' last great acts, LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD for all humans who are left on earth after the destruction of all human governments upon earth...they are all now perfect, completely sinless (including those who are alive to see this situation occur, they are given perfection instantly while alive on earth).
As Isaiah 33:24 says of that time,
"And no resident will say: 'I am sick.' The people that are dwelling in the land will be those pardoned for their error."
After Jesus has done all of this, He "hands the kingdom over to His God and Father."
The 1,000 year reign of peace can now begin...with the entire human population alive upon earth, free of all human rule and rulerships, where the recently crowned "Son of Man" (the "mystery" rider of the "White Horse," of Revelation 6th chapter) and his associate rulers, the "holy ones of the Supreme One," the ones that Daniel 12:3 speaks of, can now "shine brightly as the Sun."
Just as Daniel 7:25-27 shows, AFTER Jesus has removed ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS and "ADAMIC DEATH," then, they rule unobstructed, free of human inference in peace...total peace. The "holy ones of the Supreme One" and the "Son of Man", rule now, not only for the 1,000 year period of peace over the earth completely, but their "rule" will have no end at all, they rule till "time indefinite," or forever more...Their rulership shall never be "brought to ruin" as Daniel 2:44 shows.
Daniel 7:13, 14 & 25-27 says it all,
"I kept on beholding int he visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin"
...and verses 25-27 of Daniel 7 says:
"And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to ANNIHILATE [HIM] and to DESTROY [HIM] TOTALLY. And the king and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens WERE GIVEN TO the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an INDEFINITELY LASTING KINGDOM, and all the rulership will serve and obey even them."
Jesus Christ has been God chief Ruler and King ever since he was "declared a Son" of God, at his spiritual resurrection to heavenly life in the first century, as Romans 1:4 clearly brings out. On that "day," he was "Declared God's Son", Declared or pronounced victorious, completely and was made, or "installed" as king in the heavens -- on that "day." -- Psalms 2;6,7
Just as Jesus said to his disciples, and as recorded at Matthew 28:18, AFTER being raised from the dead,
"...ALL AUTHORITY has been given me in heaven and on the earth."
This verse is clear...Jesus was given ALL AUTHORITY in the first century at his resurrection. But the WTS says no...Jesus didn't have it. But the Bible says Jesus had it, had it ALL, in the first century. Hebrews 2:8 says for our benefit:
"All things you subjected under his [Jesus'] feet. For in that he subjected all things to him [God] left nothing that is not subject to him [Jesus]. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him;"
Yes, as Paul said, "ALL THINGS", and that's "ALL THINGS" are "subject" to Jesus, right now, as we speak. And has been so, whether the WTS and you You Know want to believe it, yes, ever since the first century, during Paul's day. ... But, "we do not yet see all things in subjection to him,"... we do not see the "subjection" yet...its not visible to us, his power, his authority, Jesus' complete authority that has been given him since he was righteously "declared a Son of God." That authority, that power, is not visible to us puny humans, yet. But that will change shortly too.
Amen.
Therefore, Jesus could not in any way, be the future "rider of the white horse," the mysterious "rider" who gets a "crown" in the future, or even since the first century, as the WTS teaches. No he cannot. Jesus does not receive a "crown" [and not a "Diadem" of rulership), a wreaf, as the Greeks say, a "Stephenos," as one would get when he wins a mere race or something...a wreaf of victory, from Jehovah in 1914...that is ridiculous.
Neither does Jesus receive "governmental authority" over ALL NATIONS during the time the powerful, earthly "beast" with "ten horns" goes about his "time, times and half a time", his rampage, his God-ordained 42-months [3 1/2 years] of Harrassing the "holy ones of the Supreme One," ... something that has not even occurred yet. This is a future event. -- Daniel 7:7-27; Revelation 11:2; 13:5-7
So, then how could Jesus Christ be the "Son of Man" who is given an "indefinitely lasting kingdom", a "kingdom that will not be brought to ruin," ever...ever. Jesus Christ DOES NOT RULE FOREVER... no, he does not, the Bible clearly says.
Jesus Christ, after destroying all human governments on earth, and performing the earthwide resurrection of the "dead," actually, yes..."TURNS THE KINGDOM OVER TO HIS GOD AND FATHER," as 1 Corinthians 15:24 clearly says. We cannot get around this. Jesus rulership STOPS! Yes, Jesus only "rules UNTIL"..."UNTIL," [Adamic] death is removed...as 1 Corinthians 15:25, 26 says:
"For he [Jesus] must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing."
MDS
PS: ...okay, okay, okay, at your request, Larc & Ianao...I decided to honor your wishes and return briefly, only to set this matter (and this WTS apologist) straight.
Take care. (Don)
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bjc2012
Ianao,
PLEASE get mds to come back. He is so much better. Thanks!!!
If you had bothered to read the post, you would have noticed at the end the word 'contributed.' I did not write this information. Since you really know nothing about MDS' writing, what is the point of your above statement?
bjc
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logical
MDS,
Just wondering, do we still all need to accept YOU as our saviour? Because Larsguy also thinks he is the messiah. Best get used to his company, cos you could be spending a lot of time together soon...
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VeniceIT
The entire Bible was fulfilled with Christs coming and destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE, Rev was written in the mid 60's.
Ven
"It is eiser to fight for ones principles the to live up to them"--Alfred Adler
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You Know
The "End" here Paul is referring to clearly, obviously, literally means the "END" of all human ruled earthly systems...that's it. That's all it can mean. It cannot the "end of the millenium" as you and the WTS have suggested, since Paul includes human "governments, authorities" and "rulerships" being "brought to nothing." And that certainly DOES NOT occur at the "end" of the millenium, the 1,000 year reign of peace.
Your error is in assuming that the governments refer to the present human governments. In fact it doesn't mention HUMAN governments at all. That is something of your own contrivance. Paul spoke of the wicked cosmocrats as the real unseen government and authorities, and also death and sin are referred to as kings that have ruled over mankind. So it is that governing authority of the demons and sin and death that is gradually brought to nothing by Jesus' rule. You are much mistaken. You really have no business trying to teach others something that you obviously don’t have a grasp of yourself. There is really no point in my proceeding any further in overturning your twisted reasonings. / You Know
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AGuest
It's really not all that complicated, children (may you all have peace!)
1. My Lord was put to death in the flesh and resurrected in the spirit in the Spring of 30C.E...
2. Shortly after that, my Father's 'blood' and 'reproductive power', holy spirit... the SOURCE of life, was initially poured out upon some of the 'seed' of the 'woman', to thus 'fertilize' [them]...
3. By means of the One whom my Father granted to 'pour out' such 'blood' or spirit... or 'WATER'...
4. And as a result, those who 'belong' to my Lord... DURING HIS PRESENCE (which would mean from his birth in the flesh until his return... at which time EVERY eye will see him)... by means of being 'in union' with him through that holy spirit... and DIE... in the flesh... before my Lord's return, arrival, whathaveyou... are resurrected... in the spirit... and thus, will 'put on' that which is 'incorrupt'... 'whites robes'... SPIRIT bodies...
5. AT THE SAME TIME...
6. As those who 'belong' to my Lord, by means of being 'in union' with him through holy spirit... but have NOT died... ARE CHANGED... transfigured... metamorphosed... into such incorrupt white robes... spirit bodies...
7. And since some of us are still here, this has NOT occurred yet, but...
8. The first thing that occurs is my such ones are 'gathered' by my Lord's angels...
9. Then Satan is abyssed...
10. Then such ones will 'sit down on thrones'... WITH MY LORD... and have gathered before them 'all the nations of the earth'... who have NOT died, but are NOT 'in union' with my Lord by means of holy spirit...
11. And SEPARATE such people into two groups... sheep... by means of having 'done good' to such 'united' ones... or goats... by means of having NOT 'done good' to such 'united' ones...
12. Which separation takes approximately 1,000 years, which appears, however, as a 'day', because the aging process, etc., is once again slowed during that time...
13. And Satan is STILL abyssed...
14. And the 'sheep', by means of having the same 'faith' as Rahab, in that they are NOT 'Israelites' by means of holy spirit, but exercise faith in the GOD of the Israelites by 'doing by nature the things of the law', that is... showing love TOWARD Israel...
15. Are ALSO given 'white robes'... spirit bodies... they AND in many cases, their entire households... just as Rahab and her household was taken into Israel, although NOT circumcised and/or under the Law Covenant, and thus, not 'clean'... by the standards of the law, but deemed so purely due to FAITH...
16. And are granted ENTRY into the kingdom being ruled by Christ and his 'brothers' (which brothers, btw, consist of 144,000 from 'among the sons of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe... AND a 'great crowd out of ALL nations, which NO man was able to number', in fulfillment to my Father's promise to Abraham as well as my Lord's promise to any who put faith in him who were NOT Abraham's seed...)...
17. And become SUBJECTS of that kingdom... which was 'prepared for them' from the founding of the world...
18. But the 'goats' are left in the flesh, and thus 'cut off' from entry into the kingdom, the City of New Jerusalem, wherein exists the 'Tree of Life', from which if any eat, they will live FOREVER... because flesh... with its blood... cannot ENTER into the kingdom... and so my means of remaining in the flesh, such ones are 'everlastingly cut off' from entrance into the city...
19. Which city, after the 'marriage' of the Lamb (my Lord) and his 'bride' (the 'body' of Christ, consisting of all those 'in union' with him... Israel AND the nations...)... comes down 'OUT of heaven'... to the earth'... which is how such 'kings and priests rule UPON the earth'...
20. And during this time, a battle ensues, between my Lord and 'those chosen and faithful'... and the False Prophet and Wild Beast... and those who side up with them... the latter two which are destroyed and in the Lake of Fire... everlasting destruction... and THEIR followers (not all of the goats follow them, but many do...) who are killed and have their carcasses eating by the wild beast so as not to leave such a mess...
21. Shortly after which Satan, who has been abyssed this entire time, is 'loosed'...
22. And goes out the mislead Gog (the angels hurled out of heaven with him, but NOT those 'abyssed', for they are still in the sea, where they were confined when the swine went over the cliff...)
23. And Magog (the 'goats')...
24. Into thinking they can in fact 'conquer' the walls of the City of New Jerusalem and gain entry so that they CAN indeed eat from the Tree of Life and life... FOREVER...
25. Which IS the 'gathering' of such ones to 'the place that is in Hebrew called "HarMaggedon"'...
26. At which time fire... from the person of my Father... comes down out of heaven and destroys such ones... rebellious angels AND human 'goats'...
27. Thus CLEANSING the heavens AND the earth... wickedness in the spirit realm and wickedness in the physical realm... which is why Peter said they were 'stored up for fire'...
28. And resulting in a NEW heavens and NEW earth... NO wickedness in either realm...
29. Which IS 'the War of the Great Day of God Almighty'... ARMAGEDDON... and takes place 'AFTER the 1,000 years have ended'...
30. After which time, my Father sits down on HIS throne now to judge, and all those who were not resurrected during the first resurrection (which are those who did NOT 'belong' to my Lord... and died, whether during his presence or before...)...
31. ALL OF THE DEAD...
32. Are resurrected and stand before Him for "Judgment Day"...
33. Including the ANGELS THAT SINNED, who have been reserved in "Tartarus"... the 'pit of the abyss'... thus, 'the sea gave up those dead in IT'...
34. And He is given two (2) sets of scrolls...
35. One which contains the deeds of ALL such ones before Him...
36. And the other which is my Lord, the Lamb's, Book of Life...
37. And ALL of the deeds of such ones, spirit and flesh... are read from the first set of scrolls...
38. And because ALL these have sinned, at some point or another...
39. And the 'wages' of sin is death...
40. ALL are at risk of receiving everlasting destruction...
41. UNLESS, their names are found written in the Lamb's book...
42. Which, if so, 'blots out' their sins, and thus renders them 'clean'... sinLESS...
43. And so in line to receive a 'white robe' or spirit body and access into the kingdom...
44. Or... if not... judgment... which results in sentencing...
45. Which means everlasting destruction in the Lake of Fire...
46. Which is the ONLY means to kill the body... AND the spirit/soul.
47. The flesh, indeed, can die... but the SPIRIT... must be completely destroyed.
That's it, dear ones. That's all. And that's the truth, just as I have heard it from my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son of the Holy One of Israel, JAH OF ARMIES... and so, I have related it to you.
I bid you all peace!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
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expatbrit
Personally, I accept no-one as my saviour unless he or she can communicate their message of salvation in under one hundred words.
Expatbrit
p.s. the one hundred words also have to make sense.
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terraly
I second that Expatbrit.
I had to gnaw off my arm to stop my brain from seizing up, and I was only skimming through some of the posts.
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MDS
You Know:
Your error is in assuming that the governments refer to the present human governments. In fact it doesn't mention HUMAN governments at all. That is something of your own contrivance. Paul spoke of the wicked cosmocrats as the real unseen government and authorities, and also death and sin are referred to as kings that have ruled over mankind. So it is that governing authority of the demons and sin and death that is gradually brought to nothing by Jesus' rule. You are much mistaken. ... You Know
You Know, you have said...
"It is the governing authority of the demons...that is gradually brought to nothing by Jesus' rule."
...the Governing Authority and power of Satan, that must be gradually, gradually removed by Jesus during the 1,000 year reign of peace. Jesus takes this away...gradually...Satan's Governing Authority.
And that's the best you can do, man!?!
What?!?
C'mon, You Know, ... I know you can do better than that...
hmmmmmm.....
Thus, it takes 1,000 years of Jesus' reign to remove, "gradually" the "governing authority" and power of Satan, even though we know Satan and his Demons will be in a death-like state in the abyss, the whole time.
Now, if the human governments are destroyed at "Armageddon," all of them, and Satan and his Demons are in the abyss of inactivity for 1,000 years during the entire millenial reign...then, what in the world is Jesus removing -- gradually, You Know?
What?
I can see the brothers now at the door when asked this question,
"Why, Jesus is removing Satan's "governing authority" thru out the entire 1,000 year reign...ever so "gradually," even though Satan is fast asleep in the abyss. But Jesus is really removing that "governing authority" of Satan during the 1,000 year reign."
What an answer!
That is what you have just said.
Now that makes no sense to NO ONE...not even you, You Know. Not even you.
Now here is the Watchtower Society's Official viewpoint of the "governments, authorities and powers" that must be "brought to nothing" by Jesus as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24. The article answers once and for all the question whether they are to be viewed as "human" governments, authorities, and powers to be removed by Jesus, "at the end."
After citing 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, they state clearly
"All government and authority and power contrary to Christ's kingship will be eliminated." -- See November 1, 1952 Watchtower page 670, par. #4
Do you think they were referring to human "governments, authorities, and powers" or not at 1 Corinthians 15:24?
I'll let you be the judge of that...
Take Care,
MDS