The JW's like any other religion?

by mommy 10 Replies latest jw friends

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  mommy

  I had long talk with my mom the other day, she called me and wanted to discuss the org and the things I didn't believe in. I will spare you most of the convo, but a few things "clicked" as I spoke to her. Maybe I have been away for so long I can't clearly remember all of the teachings, but she did agree with a few things I brought up.

  She claimed that JW's are different because they don't believe in a soul, or afterlife as the rest of Christendom believes. I asked her..what about the resurection? She quoted the scripture that says, "All those in the memorial tombs will be ressurected" Ok well what about Sodom and Gomorrah? She didn't really know about them, if they were forever dead or will be ressurected. I told her of the org teaching flip-flopping on that around 7 times. Besides the point, the org is teaching that some will be ressurrected and others will not. Not far from Christendom's belief of eternal life or damnation. Not much different just different names.

  Then we came to the trinity. The father, the son, and the holy spirit. Well Jw's believe they are seperate, she claimed. I told her, they are needed together though, without one you cannot have the other. Not like Christendoms believes that they are equal, but same concept. You must pray to Jehovah though Jesus. She then questioned me who is the holy spirit then? I was stumped for a sec, until I realized it was the spirit directed earthly org. As a Jw you cannot contact jehovah without being in the earthly org.

  So basially IMO the Jw teachings may not be the same terminology as other religions, but the concepts are the same. For all of the years I have heard that JW are so different I realized they are not much different.

  Then we are in the middle of discussing this, and she asked, "What is god's name?" Of course she threw a little guilt in and said, it was one of the first words you spoke. I replied, to those who believe in god, it is jehovah. Again she asked, how many other religions teach this? My reply...MANY. Walk into any pentacostal church, or nondenominationl church, and his name is on banners on the wall. I know I have seen it.

  Throughout the conversation, she told me she researched the info when she started studying. I asked if she has done any research since joining, this is going on 30 years in the org. Of course she has been busy, and has not. I encouraged her to prove that this is the right religion, all over again. She has time now, and has the ability to get info from public library. I asked her if she did this and still truly felt this was the right org, then I too would reconsider, and start studying again.

  I ended the convo on the thought, we do not agree. She ended it with, well you made your choice. I told her it was no choice, just an ultimatum. You stay a Jw and keep your family, or you leave the JW and lose your family. It is not an easy decision, there is no bending in either direction.

  As far as you guys here online...you are all spawns of satan..hahaha I reminded her there are alot of hurt ones here, who have lost their family. Some are even living day in and day out with loved ones who shun them in their own home. I do not think she realizes the hurt that this org causes. Of course as long as she is in, she will not. I actually forgave her, for her being misled, and she was silent for a minute.

  Well, sorry this was so long, I thank you for reading. As far as the relationship between my mom and myself, I fear it will never be right. And that is very hard on my heart. I am allowing my children to go visit them. They leave next week, for a few weeks. I know I have raised my kids to be very open minded and if she does preach to them, they will be ble to make a decision, based on their current beliefs.
  wendy

  Blind faith can justify anything~Richard Dawkins, The selfish gene
• 

  Englishman

  Wendy,

  Thats brilliant! Just ask a dub to prove it to themselves all over again just like renewing a vow.

  Englishman.

  ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
• 

  DannyBear

  Hi Wendy,

  Just be glad you have sort of an open line with your mom!

  ***Besides the point, the org is teaching that some will be ressurrected and others will not. Not far from Christendom's belief of eternal life or damnation. Not much different just different names.
  ***

  This was great, it is in fact just another version of 'do or die'. I had never really summed it up that way, but that is a fact. At least with Christendom's dogma, they have stuck pretty much to their guns, not changing the rules every time a 'new light' bulb fires in some GB members brain ie:Fred Franz et al.

  What else was discussed? Did she make any overt statements of agreement? Think she will actually take up a new study of her 30yr faith?

  Thanks for sharing. Maybe there is some hope for my family members as well.

  Danny
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  Francois

  Your note confirms my utter hatred of the organization of JWs, and my pity for those who are still in it.

  ...and my empathy for all who have left.

  Franc

  Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.
• 

  Introspection

  Hi Wendy,

  Maybe I have been away for so long I can't clearly remember all of the teachings

  First of all, I would say this is a good thing. Though I think you probably remember more than I do.

  The point about the soul is interesting, it actually brought up a new thought for me as well. Strictly speaking, if God resurrects or re-creates someone from memory, that person isn't the same person but a truly identical twin who does not even share any original material substrate. It's like cloning from information only. Of course, the difference with the JW teaching is that there is nothing that is permanent, no "immortal" soul as they say, the human organism is the soul. (incidentally, there is just a little overlap with Buddhist thought there) Either way, you do not and cannot survive by resurrection as I see it, it is only a duplicate of you. So that's pretty much a contradiction. If there were individual human souls then that would be okay, or even if you want to look at things in terms of a holographic model. But in terms of the resurrection, isn't it almost like setting up everything the same way again as a game?

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
• 

  Gopher

  Hi Wendy,

  This kind of a relationship with your JW mom must be so frustrating. As the old saying says, "you're so close, yet so far". The JW form of religion, who knows if it'll change, die out or get blown out of the water with scandal. People like us raised in the organization and now out can see the handwriting on the wall. But our parents cling to it for fear of losing something, or there's no where to go. Sad.

  Your mom said the JW's are different because of their special knowledge. You skillfully deflated that theory.

  What really makes the JW's different is their grandiose claim to be the most loving, cuddly, wonderful organization ever, and yet to find out that their love is so unreal, so conditional. As you pointed out, the organization callously causes real hurt with its shunning arrangement. That in my mind is what makes JW's different, their exclusiveness, their artificial walls they build between themselves and anyone they fear, including family members.

  Hang in there, Wendy. You're doing your best, and you're both a good daughter and a good mommy!

  GopherNever bolt your door with a boiled carrot.
  Irish Proverb
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  noidea

  Hello Wendy,

  I enjoyed your post. I so know where you are right now. I haven't had the discussion with my MOM yet, I know one day it is to come.
  My Mother came out of a catholic religion she had problems with some of the doctrines.
  I have come to the conclusion that doctrine is the only thing that separates one religion from another. Instead of doctrine they should concentrate on teaching love.
  In all religions you are taught that your religion is the true religion. What is religion?
  (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
  2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
  3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
  4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

  The above was taken from the dictionary. Not once does it mention love.

  What was the message that Jesus taught. LOVE!

  If you truly practice it you will always think twice before hurting others verbal, emotionally, & physically.

  Back to doctrines:

  1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
  2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

  So you see doctrines doesn't mean squat.
  To believe in one doctrines, does it really change anything? Does it change our relationship with Jehovah, Jesus or others?
  It is only a difference in opinion.
  reminds me of a quote:

  Opinions are like assholes everyone has one and no-one gives a damn

  Same thing with doctrines. Difference of opinion.

  All religions are suppose to teach love. But most are taught they are the only ones that are right, therefore they are the only ones that deserve everlasting whatever.
  Love? only conditional not true love. Conform or die. Just like the Jewish religious leaders use to teach yet they were condemned by Jesus Why? They practiced no love only opinions.
  You asked your mother to do research.

  She has time now, and has the ability to get info from public library. I asked her if she did this and still truly felt this was the right org, then I too would reconsider, and start studying again.

  Maybe this is something that could be done together. Do you live close by?
  If you were to study again is it really going to make a difference?
  Yes, the above is my opinion and we all know what opinions are.

  Wendy, please keep us posted . There are so many of us going through this.

  To Simon, You have really done a wonderful thing here! What a wonderful meeting place and support system. Thanks!
• 

  rem

  Wendy,

  Thank you for posting your experience. I know how frustrating it is; most of us do. It's difficult, at least for me, because even though my beliefs are completely different than my former friends and they have rejected me, I still love them very much. The pain is still fresh and it's like pouring salt on a wound whenever I think about it.

  I guess I had hoped, and still hope, that my friendship was worth so much more. I wish that there was more to our relationships than just our common belief in the Society and Jehovah. I miss my old friends. I miss their personalities, their whole persons. My friendship with them was not based on their loyalty to an organization. I wonder if they miss me at all? Probably not. But I still hope they think about me once in a while like I think about them. And if they do, I hope they think about how I used to make them laugh and how we used to have good times instead of how I'm a worthless apostate now.

  It is also dificult for me to argue against the Jehovah's Witness religion well when they bring up points about the Soul, Trinity, etc. The main reason for me is that I'm no longer a Christian, so such beliefs mean nothing to me. I can do a bit better if we stick to the (in)errancy of the Bible and certain strange Chronologies and prophecies of the WT, but those doctrines (Soul, Trinity, etc.) were never what kept me a Witness in the first place, so I guess I just don't understand why they are used as the defining factor of a true religion.

  Anyway, I hope your relationship with your mom improves over time. Maybe you've given her some food for thought. If she ever does question the org, your relationship could be better than ever! That is one thing that helps me - to think that if one day any of my former friends leave the org, I'll be there with open arms to comfort them and be their friend again. Then maybe our relationship can be based on a more solid foundation.

  rem
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  mommy

  Sorry to all, I did not go into much detail of our relationship now. I left the org over 8 years ago, no df or da, I just left. I never brought up religion with her, not once. She would preach to me alot, and I dutifully listened. Of course the first few years, they were very strict and wouldn't even speak to me. But as time passed, they slacked a little with our relationship, and I was on a limited convo with them. They spoke to me about "life" and also kept in close contact with the kids. She would write them letters with special candy treats. And she also called at least once a week.

  Then the day came when I sent my baby sister an email from here, it was inspirational and had nothing to do with religion. My mother found out I was spending time here, and I went through my second shunning. But this included my kids, and we never heard from her for awhile. Well I read a post here one day from TR and his brother basically did the same thing to him. I was infuriated! I called my mom and we finally spoke of religion. She left me with the assignment to proof to her why I believe the religion was false. I called upon my friends here and was sent a load of info. I went through it all carefully, rebrushing myself up on Jw doctrine. But somewhere along the way, I lost faith. I did not want her to be lost, to lose her faith in something she dedicated so much to. So I was silent for almost a month. This is when I got the call, asking where is my proof?

  The points I made that she agreed with were the resurrection hope. She did agree that it does sound like a form of afterlife taught by other churches, but she did tell me she will research more. I think I stumped her with Sodom and Gomorrah, she didn't even know the org took a stand either way. Also I spoke of the love inside the org, and how it is not there. She disagreed with me, and said that she has been all over the world and just because she is a JW she is treated different by other Jw's and welcomed into their homes. She said any other religion could not say that, again that is Jw thinking. I told her to prove it. Call up a baptist church and tell them you are traveling and would like to meet with them. I guarantee that a reception would be made. Pick any church in the phone book, and do this as well...same thing, you will get a reception. So how is Jw any different? She did have to agree, but did say that Jw's are different still

  Anyway Looking from the outside in, it is so easy to see the wording and org thinking at it's finest. Unfortunatly it takes awhile to be able to see "in" when you are still "in" So with much patience I will continue as long as she asks. What else do I have to lose? She is already lost to me.
  wendy

  Blind faith can justify anything~Richard Dawkins, The selfish gene
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  Roamingfeline

  Hi Mommy,

  I have a suggestion for you. You might ask your mother, when discussing the lack of love in the congregations, "How loving is it of you to shun me when I'm not even DA'd or DF'd? Show me in your Bible where it says to do that." Make her prove to you WHY she is doing this. Use the Shunning information found on the net to turn the tables on her and show her where it is scripturally wrong.

  Just a suggestion. Hang in there. I know it's not easy!

  Hugs,
  RCat