virgin birth in Matt and Luke? (page 3)

peacefulpete

Sorry about that Leolaia, it just slipped out.

Leolaia

LOL, no need to apologize for a factual contribution! I was just trying to research something relevant before replying.

In particular, there are also some intriguing links between Mary and the Mandaean traditions of Miriai, legendary daughter of Nebuchadnezzer, who purportedly had a messianic role among the Nazoreans. These Miriai traditions also seem to be cognate with some of the Nebuchadnezzer material in Daniel, suggesting a common legendary origin in the Hellenistic period (if not earlier in the Persian period). There are a number of patristic and Mandaean indications that this Miriai figure partly inspired the Gnostic Mary figure -- commonly identified with Mary of Magdala but who probably represents an undifferentiated Mary that combines features that are divided between Mary of Nazareth and Mary of Magdala in orthodox literature.

Leolaia

Anna, as a mother character, may in fact derive from Hannah story, yet her Roman goddesss counterpart Anna Perenna (from which we get 'annual'?) may have popularized the associations with solar Savior Jesus.

It is possible that the similarity in name was one locus that permitted the biblical "Anna" tradition to glom onto the pagan Anna Perenna myth, or vice versa. If Pritchard is right that the Greek mysteries syncretized Anna Perenna with Isis, then this could be a viable possibility. However, it would help a lot to know that the syncretization occurred at the right place (where the Jesus/Mary infancy traditions arose) at the right time to move this possibility beyond simple conjecture. Anna's role as a goddess of the new year seems to have little in common with the Virgin Mary and Isis, but the fact that she was the daughter of Belus, the king of Sidon, is quite promising -- suggesting that Anna originated as a Semitic goddess and related in some way to Baal (= Jesus). However, it is odd that the deity that contributes to the Mary figure would correspond to the daughter of Jesus/Baal -- and not Astarte (= Mary of Magdala), or Asherah/Elat/Baalat (= Mary of Nazareth). I know there was a merger of Astarte and Anat, and possibly Asherah at this late stage (cf. the Syrian goddess Atargatis), but this does not account for Baal's daughter. That the old Phoenician/Canaanite deities were relevant to early Christian belief can be found in the early "heresy" of Simon Magus whose wife Helena came from Tyre, and his designation of himself and Helena (cf. Jesus and Mary) in terms that parallel that of Baal/Belus and Astarte.

BTW -- the name is not the source of Latin annus (< annual), which itself comes from Indo-European *at-no "thing that goes".

peacefulpete

Very interesting. You know my introduction to Bible criticism focsed on pagan parallels assuming direct dependence. Youv'e opened my eyes to a world of Jewsih literature that offers just as fertile ground for the birth of Christianity. Hey, btw we just got an offer on our house and we will be moving away as planned. My wife is registering to got back to school this winter. Our dfing was finally announced this week. My attempt to threaten suit didn't work. My folks are crushed and confused.

Narkissos

PP, sorry to hear about the end of the story. At least it is over, you are free and have nothing more to be afraid of as regards the WTS.

Take care, friend

Didier

Leolaia

PP....That's a real shame. They truly don't anyone who can think for themselves. How are your folks dealing with this? Do you think you might have to face shunning by family? BTW, do you know if they made a public announcement announcing the "sin"? Might that give you a basis to follow through with a suit? Hopefully, school and a new locale will help put this in the past....

peacefulpete

I don't know what they said but I doubt they publicly will call us apostates. I'll post the letter I wrote sometime this week. Someone with resouces could well use it to pursue a suit. My folks are in a weird place, they want to stay in touch and they need our help, yet Dad is afraid to loose his priviledges in the Hall. In the end I don't know how rigid they will be. Other memebers of the family were involved in "exposing" us and so I would not think they would hesitate to report on my folks. My wifes mom has written some terribly manipulative and twisted letters (you don't love me, you don't appreciate the sacrifices we made for you, Jehovah and us will take you back if you return to him.....etc.)and has just officially cut her off.

peacefulpete

In 1 Enoch 106,07 it is suspected that Noah does not have a natural father. His father Lamech suspects that his mother Batenosh has had an extramarital affair with an angel. Could there be a connection to Melchizedek legends as well? What do you know about this Leolaia?

Terry

If Jesus was born of a virgin; I ask what is the purpose of giving JOSEPH'S bloodline?

It's a spiritual thing - jws do not know 'spiritual'

They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did.."

"He is not God of the dead, but of the living." ************************************************************************************************************ And what, pray tell, is a SPIRITUAL GENEALOGY? Either somebody had sex and made a baby or they didn't.

A Paduan

And what, pray tell, is a SPIRITUAL GENEALOGY? Either somebody had sex and made a baby or they didn't.

"If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did.." If you don't know, in what manner did you ever understand scriptual terminology like "generation" or "children" or "adultery" or "effeminate" or "husband" or "wife" ..................

virgin birth in Matt and Luke?

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