Jesus' Answer for a Sign

by Friend 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Friend

  Zep

  …and that’s the key to me, we have to be witnessing them more…

  Please answer the following question very carefully. Which events, if any, did Jesus indicate would be more?

  Why would Jesus give a Sign and yet make it so hard to discern

  Who says it is hard to discern? If we make such a statement based upon historical beliefs that people realized the fulfillment of Jesus answer for a sign we can see why it was hard to see, because it wasn’t there. Nevertheless, historical beliefs have nothing to do with whether we today can realize a fulfillment of Jesus’ answer. Also, contrary to your feelings, Jesus did not indicate that anyone other than his followers—true believers—would recognize the fulfillment of Jesus answer for a sign prior to the very end of the age. Therefore, insisting upon a scenario where some sign is obvious to all persons is reading a conclusion into the text.

  I believe you fail to realize a basic issue as do so many. Besides events, Jesus indicated the extent of observation of them. We cannot say we have examined humankind’s history or our day for a legitimate fulfillment or possible fulfillment of Jesus answer for a sign unless we look for both things, events and extent of observation of those events. No time prior to our own has global observation of events existed until advances in technology allowed real-time communication.

  waiting

  There is much to what you have said. Please understand that neither in this thread nor any other do I offer any intended defense for actions of the WTS. As for reasons for Carl putting his work together, there exist good reasons for it and he has acted commendably in doing so. Undoubtedly he is a very conscientious person.

  Friend
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  Zep

  Please answer the following question very carefully. Which events, if any, did Jesus indicate would be more?

  If you take the sign to mean, as many do, that 'Nation will rise against nation and there will be pestilence and EarthQuakes' and 'great signs from heaven' and 'signs in the sun and the moon and the stars and the anguish of the nations' as LUKE adds.There has to be a delineating peroid in history for you to be able to discern this and to set it apart from prior history...If these things above are part of the Sign that the Apostles asked for, that was to indicate that Jesus second advent was near, then it has to be distinquishable from prior history else it really isn't a sign of his coming and you may as well say that the sign has been visible for 2000 years. Therefore, i'd say that these events would have to be 'more' as opposed to less, so we can distinquish that sign.On the other hand, you can read MAT in the sense that the "Nation will rise against nation' part of things is just a continuation of the prior warning that there would be 'wars and rumours of wars' and that these things would happen, but they are not a sign, they are just the way things will always be and therefore dont read anything into them.Matthew also gives another sign, saying that the gospel will be preached to the whole world...so, make of that what you will, was he talking globally or just about his immediate area etc, i dont know?.But if this was supposed to be a major feature of the the sign, why doesn't Luke even mention it, he says nothing about the gospel being preached world wide.Luke, gives the impression to me that 'Nation against nation' etc is actually the real sign...therefore, you do need a delineating moment somewhere in history to be able to distinquish it from prior history else you dont have a 'sign' as i said.

  Also, contrary to your feelings, Jesus did not indicate that anyone other than his followers—true believers—would recognize the fulfillment of Jesus answer for a sign prior to the very end of the age.

  Well, i guess my heart isn't right as usual.But to me, Jesus indicated a period in history that would be significant and serve as a sign. People might not recognize that period in time as having anything to do with Jesus' coming, but the fact that there is to be a significant change in human history with respect to Wars, pestilence, Earthquakes and famine should be discernable as far as i'm concerned.All these things however, have remained pretty much constant throughout history, and people have always drawn a comparison between their particular times and 'the sign'.
  Btw, I'd need more details in respect this Global communication idea you have in order to make a judgment.I'm really not sure about it Friend!.I like to keep things simple...and i'm not sure i'm getting your point exactly.Honestly, I just cant see things as really being any different from prior centuries at the moment and i really dont see how Global communication has any bearing on the sign Jesus gave either!.The primary thing to me is that you have to have a marked increase in those things specifically that Jesus gave out as being a sign....So, thats the question for me.Have these things(earthquakes etc) increased enough to warrant connection with the Sign?.I'd like to think that God would keep things that simple without bringing too many twists and turns into the equation.

  Edited by - Zep on 4 September 2000 1:46:16
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  Friend

  Zep

  I see from your reply that the notion of "more" is something you are reading into the text rather than letting the text speak for itself. It is, however, important to realize one issue that you repeatedly bring to the fore, the idea that for a sign to be a sign that it must be uniquely recognizable during a single period. That is the point of my initial post on this topic, and I am aghast that it has not been realized. Let me simplify things.

  Let’s say that Jesus’ answer for a sign indicated just two things for a period of time—which for all practical purposed it does. Let’s say that he indicated 1) the observance of earthquakes (events) and 2) that they would be observable worldwide.

  In that case there is no need for earthquakes (events) to increase but only to wait for a period of time when they are observable worldwide. Earthquakes (events) can be observable worldwide by one of two ways. 1) They can happen as an event worldwide for all to observe during a period of time—which has never occurred during humankind’s history—, or 2) they can happen just as they have for eons but during a period of time when real-time communication comes about whereby they can be observed with all the horror of seeing them firsthand.

  What so many fail to see is that Jesus was describing not only what could be observed but also their observability. Ever since Jesus supposedly uttered his answer for a sign events like war, earthquakes, famine, disease, et cetera have happened pretty much at a constant level, but that is not all Jesus indicated, that is, that those events would just happen. Jesus also indicated the extent those events could be observed, that is, globally. Only within the last 100 years have those events been observable as Jesus indicated, globally. And that by real-time communication. The proliferation of such communication has significantly heightened humankind’s awareness of global events, which, again, is indicated in Jesus’ answer for a sign.

  I hope this helps. Perhaps based upon our recent exchanges it would do you good to re-read my initial post on this subject. That is, if you are interested enough. I do not push this stuff on anyone because all it does is argue that our day is the first to uniquely witness Jesus’ answer for a sign, and I am not dogmatic about it. In fact, I see no place in Jesus’ reply indicating that realization of any sign is of paramount importance. Therefore, Jesus’ could have provided a sign but realizing it was not critical.

  Friend
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  Zep

  Don't be aghast.I understood you the first time actually, you just confirmed what i thought you were getting at.Its just that these things tend to get muddled at times with me...Its hard to see a new perspective like yours when you have such a habit of hearing the sign explained another way(WT's).But now i know where your at for sure and thanks for clarifying...I'll try and get back to you soon.I don't think, at the moment, that i was necessarily reading into the text however...i think you can read MAT numerous ways, thats the problem for me!

  Edited by - Zep on 4 September 2000 11:11:39

  Edited by - Zep on 4 September 2000 11:12:32
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  waiting

  Dear Zep and Friend,

  Please don't be offended by my not being serious here, but I've notice something peculiar recently with a lot of Friend's posts. A real mellowing. Btw, Friend, several of us have noticed - and appreciated it - as you are always interesting.

  Zep, we're all aghast about you some time or another. That's why your special. (Bet your mom told you that too!!)

  waiting