My Lunch with an active JW today

by Terry 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Balsam
    Balsam

    Terry,

    I loved your discussion with Johnny. Can you direct me to information on the gentile converts and the jewish converts to Christianity and they differed. Is there some books that I can point too. I thought your arguement and reasoning with Johnny was outstanding. I would like to have in mind that same arguement. Going from a direct discussion on blood just does not work with most JW's. But going back to the actual historical understanding makes even more sense to me. Good going Terry.

    Ruth

  • Bubbamar
    Bubbamar

    Awesome post Terry. You're a very good writer and I have been enjoying your posts -- what a mind!!

    I love the irony also - He got you in and now you are going to get him out!! (he just doesn't know it yet - tehehe)

  • Terry
    Terry

    If anybody wants to run down to Barnes and Noble and pick up a copy of Talmudic Scholar Hyam Maccoby's book THE MYTHMAKER, Paul and the Invention of Christianity you will find the $9 you spend to be an embaressment of riches.

    By taking the classical Jewish rabbinical view of things into the study of how the Jerusalem congregation dealt with Paul the teachings of the Watchtower Society regarding blood fall by the wayside.

    There were two methods of salvation for Gentiles in Pharisee thinking; either by full conversion to Judaism, in which case the convert would become a full Jew and participate in the covenant with israel; or by adherence to the Noahide Laws which constittued a covenant and a Torah for Gentiles as revealed by God to Noah, the patriarch of the Gentiles.

    In the case of Paul vs the brothers in Jerusalem, the Gentiles he was preaching to would not wish to become full-fledged Jews since their salvation by Jesus was sufficient. The Jews would, therefore, insist they abide by the Nohide laws if they were going to allow them association in worship.

    Consequently, the argument that the Jews regarded Gentiles as doomed to destruction unless they became Jews is nonsense. Paul, who neither read nor spoke nor wrote Hebrew was raised a Gentile by his Gentile parents. His efforts to become a Pharisee failed. It is psychologically necessary for Paul to figure out a salvation for himself that is SUPERIOR to those who rejected him. The Ebionite account of Paul is most illuminating. (Ebionites were a gnostic sect (writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls) who shed further light on who Paul was.

    Paul's claims about himself are never challenged by modern day Christianity and least of all the Watchtower Society. An honest investigation of all available historical evidence puts Paul's self-claims to the test.

    The fact is Paul's theories about Jesus and his place in religious history was a self-serving and elevating attempt at self-aggrandizement. His writings were FIRST between 50 c.e. and 60 c.e. By the time the gospel accounts began to be written down decades of Paul's version had a chance to influence prevailing viewpoints. The gospels date from 70 c.e. to 110 c.e.

    The editors of orthodoxy preferred Paul's version and eliminated everything that didn't fit his theory from finding its way into the canonized version of the Bible. As a result, the Apostles are portrayed as little more than dumb boobs who understood nothing. Jesus' own brother, James, is hardly mentioned at all! Yet, who led the congregation in Jerusalem after Jesus' death?

    Stepping outside of mainstream thought requires a lot of work. It requires taking all ancient writings into evidence and weighing the balance between them. When contradictions start clearing up, the picture often makes more logical sense than the sanitised official view so dear to the hearts of the powerbroker religious institutions.

    My friend, Johnny, simply never entertains any thought that don't originate from Brooklyn N.Y.

    He said yesterday, more than once, "I HAVE TO BELIEVE....."
    Desperate!

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Paul didn't speak hebrew? I never noticed that before.

    Johnny is lucky to have a friend like you.

    S

  • Terry
    Terry

    I remember that later, after lunch, he said something that stunned me. He said his children were "worthless". "All of them".

    Wuh?

    Where does THAT come from? He has five kids that are all grown. The youngest of his kids is 23. They ALL live at home. All go to AA meetings. All have been in and out of the organization over the years.

    He actually thinks being a Jehovah's Witness had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT!

    He has said many times that he and his wife were perfect parents. This sort of self deception is mind-boggling to me. But, to say your own children are "WORTHLESS"???

    I told him this:

    When kids don't have outright abusive parents they cannot say to themselves "They are hurting me, they deserve to be hated or ignored, I'll rebel against them because they are mean and evil"
    Instead, when their parents are kind and religious and "righteous" they look at themselves as evil and mean and deserving of punishment for feeling they HATE THE VALUES of their righteous parents. They turn it on themselves and punish themselves. They destroy the evil by hurting their own worthless selves. So, to dull the pain and still the anger they drink or take drugs and they act out.

    The only part of that Johnny got was that he and his wife, Carol, were righteous!!

    Amazing words from a parent, don't you think?

  • BrendaCloutier
    BrendaCloutier

    Terry, that's awesome. Your friend must love you very much to risk such inappropriate, clandestined meetings that could result in disfellowshipping.

    You held yourself well.

    Hugs

    Brenda

  • zanex
    zanex

    wow..what a lunch..its amazing the things that CONTINUE to spew out of the mouths of active JW's..lol, I loved the "we used to ride horses too" comment. Made me laugh hard. Ahhh...JW's....

    and on another note only a JW would pass off their own inadeqacies as "faults of their children" sigh...that one brought back lots of memories...only difference is now those memories make me chuckle...thanx for sharing the experience! Think you will be having more lunches after this point? a person can only handle being embarassed so much...or maybe not!

  • Preston
    Preston

    OMG, I LOVE William Castle!!!! No offense, I thought your post was worthwhile, but Castle was great. Methinks "The Tingler" to be as good as horror gets.... BTW, he had a significant role in the making of Rosemary's Baby but I think you knew that already I also am a fan of the works of Dario Argento.... but yeah, we have to talk...

  • Balsam
    Balsam

    Terry,

    I realize that my oldest son felt as your friend Johnny's kids do about he and his wife. We were good parents from our standpoint even righteous, never abused them and was unfailingly understanding of the difficulties of being a JW kid. The trouble was my son didn't appreciate living by the bible and was becoming self persecuting. When I left the JW's it turned him around, and he even tells me now I saved his life. He was constantly viewing himself as failing Jehovah because he was fighting the impulses to be a normal kid. I left his Dad and the religion a month before he turned 18. From then on he realized it was ok just to have normal feelings. No more God hanging on his shoulder condemning him. We had long talks about the bible and religions affects on people. He is doing fine now thank goodness, and my youngest son at 16 is finding his way. Self-abuse has stopped and they have bright future. The realize now how fragile and pathetic their parents can be. LOL

    We don't realize the pressure we put on kids when we try to be too righteous setting the perfect example. It raises impossible standards for their lives and I. Johnny's kids were not worthless, but Johnny and his wife had caused their kids to feel worthless because they had surpressed their love of life so perfectly. Making the world the kids grew up in as something bad and undesireable even sinful.

    JW parents and other religious people do the same thing to their children. Funny thing is they imagine they are right and their poor kids are the worthless ones.

    I remember a couple of years ago I used the F-word in front of my boys, they loved it and roared with laughter and delight. I was so shocked by my slip of the tongue I couldn't believe I'd said that. But their response was so surprising. They were so thrilled. They said Mom is human all the way now. LOL Well I chose not to use that word out loud, but they still remind me of it, and I have to laugh.

    I found it interesting reading the Noahide laws, very interesting.

    Ruth

  • Terry
    Terry

    Johnny needs somebody to talk to who isn't marked with the JW insanity. I'm the one because I know him better than anybody. He needs somebody who won't let him get away with crap! He has gotten away with crap his whole life because he has intimidation skills. I refuse to let him intimidate me.

    But, he resents it. He would not be human if he didn't feel resentment. At the same time he can feel SUPERIOR to me because I'm going to be murdered by Jehovah's Avenging Angel of love at Armageddon :)

    Our relationship is very Freudian in implications. I must confess that I am angry for about 3 days after I meet with him. I'm not so much mad at him as at the JW situation. I want to force him to acknowledge it is a heaping, steaming pile of horsie plop. But, he won't, can't.

    That's the way it stands. I am taking the Chinese water torture approach.

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