Being Patriotic , is it really that bad ???

by run dont walk 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief
    I love my country so I do what I can to make it better-to change things-to progrees. I vote, I write letters and I am a gay rights activist, feminist, etc. I do not like the current president but I respect hin. I will vote against him. I do not put a flag sticker on my car, I do not own an SUV, I am called unpatriotic. I love this country but I will not blindly follow its leaders when I feel they are wrong.

    Amen. And while I disagree with you on certain issues, I would concur that being patriotic, especially in America, means arguing with the leaders when you disagree.

    BUT - there is a kind of anti-patriotism circulating around, kind of "My country must always be wrong" sort of thing. It looks down on anybody that feels that their country has something special to offer the world, especially in America.

    CZAR

  • talesin
    talesin

    Czar

    Perhaps the time has come for us to stop caring about imaginary lines that some power broker placed on a map. What difference does it make that 'our country' contributed this or that? Does it make you a better person? Or do national boundaries just divide the world? (In the big picture, of course, and philosophically speaking.)

    This is not an old JW thought, it is my own opinion after living in the world for all of my adult life. To me, it's like, you're American, so what? What have YOU accomplished? And yes, YOU have (as a person, I'm not attacking you, Czar), but it's just a general question. All this nationalism is just a way to satisfy the masses, and make them think they are doing good by supporting yet another system, this one run by another bunch of businessmen.

    ***Let's get the poor (ie, the working poor) hyped up about nationalism and the evils of welfare, and they will forget about how we are screwing them with taxes, star wars, etc.***

    See what I mean? Well, maybe not. It's just a thought. ;)

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    How do you feel about your country now that you are out of the borg ???

    Thanks for asking, I'm a liberal, so of course I hate freedom. Other than all the damn freedom, America is a pretty nice place.

  • HeyNow!
    HeyNow!

    I learned to love Christmas and I learned to love this country! So much so, that I joined a politcal party three years back. I am considering running for local office here in the next couple of years.

    I know this country is not perfect, but were else can you agree and disagree so openly? People come here because it offers a good life for those who try...an opportunity unparalled in the world. I know that goes equal with our close friend Canada.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief
    Perhaps the time has come for us to stop caring about imaginary lines that some power broker placed on a map. What difference does it make that 'our country' contributed this or that? Does it make you a better person? Or do national boundaries just divide the world? (In the big picture, of course, and philosophically speaking.)

    People NEED boundaries. It's a basic instinct. We just have bigger boundaries than most animals. To a certain extent, yes, it is rather feudal. But then again, it has always been this way. To suggest that the "time" has come to change that means that the basic nature of humanity has changed. And, um, no, it hasn't. There has to be a line, and people that want to live one way live on one side, and the others live on the others. That's just how human beings are.

    This is not an old JW thought, it is my own opinion after living in the world for all of my adult life. To me, it's like, you're American, so what? What have YOU accomplished? And yes, YOU have (as a person, I'm not attacking you, Czar), but it's just a general question. All this nationalism is just a way to satisfy the masses, and make them think they are doing good by supporting yet another system, this one run by another bunch of businessmen.

    Oscar Wilde once said that "nationalism is the vice of the ignorant." To a great extent, yes, that is true. But, healthy patriotism is a different matter. Patriotism literally means "belief in the fathers" - or respect for the accomplishments of our ancestors. America has transcended the literal biological definition of "father" to include spiritual and political fathers like Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln. So, to accept the beliefs and to perpetuate the beliefs of our "fathers" when they include basic human dignity, property rights, and equality - well, that is a noble and beautiful thing. My literal biology comes from Scotland, only fifty years ago; so I have no biological connection to Jefferson. But in America, I am allowed to claim him as my political "forefather" and then espouse his beliefs and help them to their conclusions. Ergo, I am an American, with much to be proud of.

    Pride in my country, in my estimation, means a great deal of responsibility. If I carry the torch Jefferson did, then I have to carry it into areas he never got to - like race. It is not mindless "Uber Alles" rhetoric in my view, if you decide to become an AMERICAN then you have a great deal to live up to. It's not enough to chant USA at the Olympics, you have to argue for and defend democracy at every turn. You have to be willing to sacrifice all for the welfare of your neighbors.

    ***Let's get the poor (ie, the working poor) hyped up about nationalism and the evils of welfare, and they will forget about how we are screwing them with taxes, star wars, etc.***

    See what I mean? Well, maybe not. It's just a thought. ;)

    I am a member of the working poor. But I believe in the uniquely American concept that true betterment comes from self-improvement and use of a free market, not through government programs. I'm not a mindless, screw the poor, Republican. In fact, I have met very few Republicans that demand that ALL welfare be cut. I just think our perspective is that the poor are much better off when they learn HOW to work the free market to their benefit. There are many hard times, but everyone has hard times of varying natures and degrees. I have seen just as much pathos at the heights of human wealth as at the bottom. True happiness comes from within.

    BTW: Star Wars led to the fall of a system that would have prevented the exchange of ideas like these, and indeed, would have probably banned the Internet. Don't knock Star Wars. It did the job.

    CZAR

    PS: i totally agree that nationalism can, in the wrong hands, be used to ill intent. But healthy patriotism can prevent many of the ills of nationalism!!!!

  • talesin
    talesin

    I hear you, Czar. Perhaps we are just in different head spaces on these issues. :)

    ::BTW: Star Wars led to the fall of a system that would have prevented the exchange of ideas like these, and indeed, would have probably banned the Internet. Don't knock Star Wars. It did the job.

    Debatable. It's my opinion that the USSR and communism never had a snowball's chance in hell of taking over the world. I'd like to agree to differ on that, it could be argued forever, and to what end?

    Although you haven't addressed it, the Star Wars 'benefit' argument is also familiar. The one I get in Canada usually involves the 'development of science that has aided medicine'. Yes, and those things could have been developed without this arms race in the sky. Let's not kid ourselves. It's a common publicity trick. Focus on the side issue, make it seem more important. The benefit to humanity is a red herring that screams "Look at ME!" and is definitely not where the bulk of money was/is spent.

    It did the job all right. It was all about the war industry, which is similar to the prison industry in that it is a manufactured one, and used for the creation of wealth.

    ::But I believe in the uniquely American concept that true betterment comes from self-improvement and use of a free market, not through government programs.

    Okay, then. I'll not dispute your claim that America is 'unique' in its embracing of said concept, and stick to the main point.

    You do not have a 'free market'. I don't see America practicing what it preaches. Are you saying that your government does not operate by means of programs that hand out money in the form of incentives to large corporations or other lobbies?

    ::People NEED boundaries. It's a basic instinct.

    This sounds too much like slavery to me. That is what country lines are all about. Creating a class of people to be ruled by the elite. People can create their own boundaries. They do not need to be 'ruled'. Concensus is achievable.

    ::But then again, it has always been this way.

    I would not call this sound reasoning. Does this mean it is right, just because "it has always been this way"? hmmm

    ::To suggest that the "time" has come to change that means that the basic nature of humanity has changed. And, um, no, it hasn't.

    Um, well, I feel it has. Sociology is not my field, but it seems to me that the nature of humanity has changed enormously since, for example, 1066. We are constantly changing.

    Indeed, many westerners feel that our culture has evolved past that of other, more ancient cultures because of what we call their barbarism. We feel it is time for them to change as the basic nature of humanity has changed and we no longer accept their barbaric customs as either normal or natural. Does that argument sound familiar?

    From my viewpoint, it is time for us to change as well and evolve to the next level. Marshall McLuhan's vision of a 'global village' will happen, maybe not in my lifetime. The reality of that dream needs to be kept alive, by those who feel that humanity can rise above greed and lust for power.

    "So you say I'm a dreamer ... well, I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us ... and the world will live as one." :)

    JL 1940-1980

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    Talesin,

    Firstly, let me congratulate you on a well written post. It is a pleasure to debate someone who can express themselves coherently. So many liberals simply haven't thought out their position. Of course, many conservatives haven't either...

    Debatable. It's my opinion that the USSR and communism never had a snowball's chance in hell of taking over the world. I'd like to agree to differ on that, it could be argued forever, and to what end?

    Sorry. Can't let it go. Your argument is against military expenditures, indeed, any form of national consciousness or defense. I would like to nail you down on three points regarding the USSR and communism.

    1.) It had, and indeed, still has, more than a "snowball's chance in hell" of taking over the world. Only twenty years ago there were millions of people under its grip. It technically still has China. I concur with your implied opinion that the system and idea is so inherently flawed as to be unworkable; but the dictatorship of the proletariat has killed more noncombatant citizens last century than any other cause of death.

    2.) While true communism eluded them, the Communist nations were expanding, subverting, and taking over country after country. Afghanistan, Nicaragua, North Korea, Vietnam... so much so that the WT used to point to them as being evidence of the "Last Days." However, their system, both economic and political, was flawed, and the only way to defeat them was to implode them.

    3.) Reagan spent billions on defense, trying to develop the technology to overwhelm the Soviet ability to defend itself. The so-called Star Wars programs was an anti-missile program, which valid or not, required a Soviet response in expenditures. They couldn't keep up, they had to introduce market reforms in order to keept heir economies from melting down, and from there, freedom began to taste veryvery good to millions of poeple used to working on collective farms.

    These three facts about Communism require significant military expenditures today.

    You do not have a 'free market'. I don't see America practicing what it preaches. Are you saying that your government does not operate by means of programs that hand out money in the form of incentives to large corporations or other lobbies?

    Freer than any other. Incentives are usually couched in tax breaks, or making a market a little freer in order to encourage development. The difference is the government rewards individual accomplishment, taking on the role of a private entity contracting for a product or service; as opposed to the central planning model, which would require beauracratic oversight. In the first, the power is split almost evenly between the two parties. In the second, the government still wields all the power, and usually not well or efficiently, either, because when you can tax you don't need to save money or even turn a profit.

    Um, well, I feel it has. Sociology is not my field, but it seems to me that the nature of humanity has changed enormously since, for example, 1066. We are constantly changing. Indeed, many westerners feel that our culture has evolved past that of other, more ancient cultures because of what we call their barbarism. We feel it is time for them to change as the basic nature of humanity has changed and we no longer accept their barbaric customs as either normal or natural. Does that argument sound familiar? From my viewpoint, it is time for us to change as well and evolve to the next level. Marshall McLuhan's vision of a 'global village' will happen, maybe not in my lifetime. The reality of that dream needs to be kept alive, by those who feel that humanity can rise above greed and lust for power.

    While I wish you luck in your altruistic outlook, and I am sure that it is sincere, I can't agree that human nature has changed significantly since 1066. I assume you are referring to the Norman conquest of England. We still fight pitched battles. We still murder, rape, steal, and lie. We still betray for money. You would have to prove this idea VERY conclusively. Which "barbaric" customs are you referring to? Gladiatorial combat? Slavery? These still exist, indeed, in many ways, you claim that they exist within our borders. Did you know that the Communists, before World War 1, were convinced of a similar change in human nature? That the working class would never pick up arms against their fellow workers? That indeed, any attempt by the rulers to bring a war would result in a massive strike, industrial shutdown, and a Communist paradise? they were wrong then, and the dream of utopia is wrong now. It can't happen.

    In 1066, there was no question of debating the morality pf civilian casualties. You were English, you lost, nobody cares. Now, we talk of "collateral damage" and shrug it off as acceptable.

    Sorry, unless this Magic Kingdom of the WT ever gets together and does something, the world will continue like it always has. Some rich, some poor, some power hungry, and some hippys...

    CZAR

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    :the world will continue like it always has.











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