hi,
a recent watchtower made this point about matt. 24:45-7 to prove this does apply to a collective group, not individuals scattered about. 'how could indivduals be appointed over all christ's belongings?' . how would u refute this?
bavman
faithful & discreet slave
by bavman 9 Replies latest watchtower bible
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peacefulpete
First it is important to recognize that this is not a prophecy but a a parable. Reading the same story in Luke makes the WT "application" impossible. Leolaia did an excellent piece a while back (linked to in another thread just above this one)that revealed the general model was part of a Joseph exegesis, popular at the time. The idea of disputing whether a parable had this or that literal "fullfillment" is a waste of time. It was a story that had a moral like the dozen or so others in the Synoptics that used similar characters. Adventists like the JWs tend to "see" themselves and their mission presaged in every story and illustration.
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cyber-sista
I have met several who claim to be of the annointed (many of them sisters) but they are not in contact with the WT Org nor do they have any imput into any of the WT teachings, writings, etc. So who really are the faithful and discreet slave--a collective group of people from around the world or a handful of old men in Brooklyn protected by a group of lawyers protecting their investments?
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garybuss
It's a bit like debating who has the biggest ears, Mickey or Goofy?
Always separate the assumptions from objective reality. What part of the topic is objective reality? -
Justin
Even if we grant that this is a parable, if we want to play in the same ballpark as the WT we could ask what the "belongings" are. If we do that, then certainly the belongings would be the Lord's people however this is conceived. The governing body doesn't think it has been appointed over the earth itself, does it? Over the mountains, valleys, animal species, etc.? No, people are what the governing body governs.
So the older idea, that a person such as Russell, was the "servant" was not so far fetched. Wasn't Russell, for all intents and purposes, the leader of the Bible Students? True, he did not impose the rigid control that the governing body does, but he was a charismatic leader who strongly influenced the Bible Students, and they were considered to be the Lord's people, his "belongings."
I personally think the parable applies to anyone, such as an elder, who has a responsiblity to feed the Christian congregation. The final appointment over the "belongings" is simply the reward of reigning with Christ in the kingdom, and is handed out at his final coming to bring an end to the old order of things. In that case, the "belongings" would have a universal significance and not simply refer to a small group of people here and now.
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Kenneson
That is not the only illustration where Jesus speaks of slaves. See Matt. 25:14-30 Collective group or individuals? I would say the latter because they all receive different amounts of talents. Yet the first two are called "good and faithful slave," while the latter is called the "good-for-nothing slave."
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Carmel
I love it when the JWs try to make every little story or bible reference some how apply to their pathetic organization. How about the definition of Anti-Christ? Those who at the time of Jesus denyed that "the Christ had come in the flesh" were called the "anti-Christ" of which many were already "in the world". So by JW exegisis, those today that deny that He will or has come "in the flesh" would also be the modern day Anti-Christ! Hmmm, wonder who claims that He is already present , but only SPIRITUALLY?
carmel
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hooberus
a recent watchtower made this point about matt. 24:45-7 to prove this does apply to a collective group, not individuals scattered about. 'how could indivduals be appointed over all christ's belongings?' . how would u refute this?
What is the date of the recent WT?
Here is a WT refutation of the servant being a class. This WT argues that the servant must be an individual ! :
April 15, 1904
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quiet coming, unostentatious, unknown, without heralds or any commotion likely to disturb. The breaking up of the strong man's house--the breaking up of present institutions, civil, religious, political, financial-- is already under way, just as the knocking for his servants is in process. The entire social structure is under control of the new Prince. He is marshaling his forces, and will cause even the wrath of man to praise him and to work out his purposes in the overthrow of every known institution built upon selfishness. Great will be the fall thereof--"a time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation"; but upon the ruins the King of kings and Lord of lords will rear the grand Kingdom of the Lord, for which all who are his already pray, "Thy Kingdom come," and which, when it shall come to be instituted by the Lord, will be indeed the "desire of all nations."--`Haggai 2:7`.
"IN SUCH AN HOUR AS YE THINK NOT."
The essence of this lesson is summed up in the `40th verse`, "Be ye also ready; for in an hour ye think not the Son of man cometh." No one will be aware of the hour of the Son of man's coming; it is not a matter that is left in such a form as to be speculated upon in advance. His knock will be the first intimation of his presence. And so it has been fulfilled: none of us knew in advance when the Lord's coming would take place; it was after it had occurred that we heard the knock-- his voice through the prophets of the Old Testament, declaring to us that we are already in the harvest time and in the days of the presence of the Son of man. Here we have fulfilled the words of the Lord in `Matthew 24:37`, "As the days of Noah were, so shall also the parousia [presence] of the Son of man be." The text shows that the thought is that as the world was ignorant of coming events in Noah's days, and, being ignorant, was eating and drinking and planting and building, so it will be in the days of the presence of the Son of man: the world will be ignorant of the fact of his presence, and the ordinary affairs of life will be progressing as usual. Only "ye brethren" who hear the knock will discern the presence and get the blessing.
Peter inquired whether or not this parable was applicable only to the twelve apostles, or to all those who were disciples in a general sense. Our Lord measurably ignored the question in his reply, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward whom his lord shall set over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?" The implication seems to be that when the right time should come for understanding the parable, it would be clearly set forth: that at the time of the parable's fulfilment the Lord would appoint a servant in the household to bring these matters to the attention of all the servants, and that certain responsibilities would rest upon such a one respecting the dispatch of his duties. If faithfully performed a great blessing would be his reward, and if unfaithful to his charge severe penalties would be inflicted. The implication would be also that if faithful the servant would be continued in his service, and if unfaithful he would be dismissed and another take the position and its responsibilities.
"THE FAITHFUL AND THE WISE STEWARD."
We would naturally enough endeavor to interpret our Lord's words as signifying a composite steward-- that is that a certain number or class of brethren together would constitute the steward of this parable. In endeavoring to make such an interpretation we are
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met with several difficulties, however.
(1) To suppose such a class in the Church would be to recognize what is elsewhere denied--to recognize a clerical or authoritative class as distinct and separate from the remainder of the Church, because this steward is to dispense the meat in due season to the household, to the fellow-servants. The Church of Christ, we hold, is not composed of clergy and laity, but "ye are all one in Christ Jesus, and one is your Master, even Christ." There would be no violation of principle, however, in supposing that the Lord at the time indicated would specially use one member of his Church as the channel or instrument through which he would send the appropriate messages, spiritual nourishment appropriate at that time; because at various times in the past the Lord has used individuals in such a manner. For instance, Peter used the "keys" of the Kingdom of heaven at Pentecost, and again at the home of Cornelius, and in both places he was used as a special servant in connection with the dispensing of special truths. This did not constitute Peter a lord over the other apostles or over the Church, but merely a servant.
(2) However much we might endeavor to apply this figure to the Lord's people collectively, the fact would still remain that the various items stated would not fit to a company of individuals. For instance, in the `42nd verse`, in the common version it is rendered, that faithful steward; the revised version, the faithful steward; as though a particular one were meant and the term not used indefinitely for a number. Turning to the Greek text we find that the emphasis is there also and in double form--the faithful, the wise steward. If it were a case in which we could apply this text to Christ, there would be no difficulty, or if it were a case in which it could be applied to the whole body of Christ, there could be no difficulty, in harmonizing the one with the many members of the one body of Christ; but since the servant mentioned is to dispense food to the other members of the body, his fellow-servants, the term seems to be limited to some particular individual. However, just as we said of Peter, that he was not by reason of special use made a lord over the brethren, so we say of whoever is meant
::R3356 : page 126::
in this passage, that in no sense of the word would this constitute him a lord, or dictator or master, or imply his inspiration. All that we could say would be that it would be one who would be privileged to be a servant, and not many seem anxious to fill such a position in the true sense of the word. This servant, if found faithful, would be intrusted more and more with the distribution of every feature of Present Truth as represented in the parable, by his being given the dispensing of the food in due season to the household. Unfaithfulness on the part of this appointed one would mean his degradation from this service, and presumably the service would go on at the hands of another, his successor.
The expression, "Verily I say unto you, He shall make him ruler over all his goods," should not be understood to apply to future glories and honors, but merely to a more general charge or stewardship as respects the dispensing of the Lord's "goods" or truths due to be protected or disbursed during the remainder of this "harvest" time. In other words, the steward through whom the Lord will dispense Present Truth in this "harvest," will, if found vigilant, humble, faithful, be continued in the stewardship and be used of the Lord more and more in the service of the household-- down to the close of the "harvest."
"NOT AS LORDS OVER GOD'S HERITAGE."
That this servant must not act or be regarded as a lord is clearly indicated in the `45th verse`, which shows that such a misuse of his appointment would work his downfall. At no time has the Church ever had need to be on guard against its servants who really endeavored to serve it and to hand forth from the Lord's treasure house the meat in due season. The Church's dangers have always arisen from those who sought to lord it over God's heritage, and to dispense their own wisdom or the wisdom of other men instead of the Word of the Lord.
`Verses 47,48`, seem to imply that the servant's responsibility to the Lord will be in proportion to his knowledge of the Lord's will; and that the Lord will deal with him on the principle that having had much knowledge and opportunity, the requirements at his hands will be proportionately large.
While this exhortation in general seems to apply to one particular servant through whom the other servants are to be supplied (see `Matt. 24:45-51`), we can see that the same principles in a general sense would apply to each servant in turn, as he would receive either food or stewardship. His responsibility would be in proportion to what he received or had opportunity to receive, and to the manner in which he used the blessing. We of today, living under such great favor from the Lord, enjoying the light of Present Truth as we do, have every reason to give thanks and more and more to appreciate the things new and old from the Master's storehouse of Truth that he is now dispensing to us, and which each in turn is privileged to dispense to others and has responsibility for in proportion to his knowledge. The Lord help us each to be faithful, and to remember that our Lord was a servant as well as a Son, and that our highest privilege as sons is to be faithful servants, stewards of the manifold grace of God. -
XQsThaiPoes
The watchtower is correct but they are just playing with words to the point of simple christianity becomes almost herasy. The FDS is a group of normal born again christians at any time in history. Since 99% of jws are not "christ brothers" but simple do gooders trying the survive the end it gets obsucured.
SO the watchtower is just stating what everyone already knows and accepts as christianity and trying to make it sound proprietary. The catholics are the "slave" too. But that is one of those catch 22s if they explain the FDS doctrine too much it erodes the position of the GB. BTW the definition of the GB is any anointed at the head quarters and they are not apointed to the GB like some think. So they have to play with words all day. Most of this has eroded since 1995 sheep goat change and the 2000 retiring of the GB. I can explain more it has been a long day.
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avengers
There is no such thing as faithful and discrete slave.
Just a bunch of crap that conrol-freaks use to get power over people.
When you see a group like the Watchtower-"men" use this passage
and say they are "it", it sickens me.They are the most indescrete and lying class on this earth.
This is the way of all religion.
The best thing to do with religion is to get rid of it,
so it will be gone forever.No FDS. No more control-freaks, no GB, no Watchtower, no Awake, no religion.
But then again. What's my opinion worth?
There are people who practice religion who seem to be good people.
So be it. But don't come to me to preach it.
As long as people treat me right, I will treat them better.
This has nothing to do with religion.Andy of the I've had it with religion class.