Oh ya about that quote what is truth. I dunno that really started me thinkin that the trinity was right when I read that a while ago. But I did some research about the old old OLD school scriptures, straight up hebrews and greek stuff. And the word Theos was used differently in that line... Which kind of wasn't in favor of the trinity. I'd say read the translations word for word of the hebrew and greek scriptures. Almost all bibles were made after the thought of the trinity came to be and it started kind of favoring the trinity in the translations over the years. Come on imperfect men translated these things, stuff change over time. Good old Telephone Syndrome.
BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?
by what_is_truth_7 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Snapdragon
Hey OS, good to see you chewing on some of this heavy stuff.
Okay, I don't have much time to respond to everything I want to address, so for now....
I am still not convinced. I don't want anyone thinking I'm being blind or ignoring the scriptures. I feel that I am able to refute a lot of the pro trinity rhetoric. The only thing I can not answer is that John 1:1 scripture. (I was taught the same as OS here, with tritarian leanings in later translations of the bible.) I would need to do some major theological study to figure that one out.
In fact, to be honest, I feel like if I can find the real answer to John1:1, for myself, I will know the truth. That passage just feels like it holds the answer for me.
And one quick thing about the trinity. Early christians would have known all about it. They were under Roman rule, and Romans believed in the trinity of....Can't remember right now, but will have my ducks in a row when I write again. Anyway, this is all highly fascinating to me.
Truth, you may want to do a bit of research about the council of Nicea. That is where the deity of Jesus was decided upon by bishops. But there was the huge problem with Arius and his belief in God being seperate from his son. All facinating reading.
I'll write again, but I'm really tired.
~A
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hooberus
I always wondered, "If Jesus was God, who the heck was he praying to all those times? himsef?"
The Trinity teaches that Jesus and the Father are distinct persons.
People always told me he prayed for inner strength. Why the hell would God pray for inner strength is beyond me lol.
He prayed for strength because he was fully human as well as fully God by nature. Jesus was the creator of the angels yet he was strenghthened by the angels. Why would the creator of the angels receive strength and ministry from the angels? Answer: Because the creator of the angels (while retaining his Godhood) also became human. As a human he prayed to the Father and recived strength from angels. Yet as God He is equal to the Father, and is YHWH the creator.
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Snapdragon
Hooberus, I'm not trying to be offensive....but honestly, look at your response. This is the part where people say...."you cannot explain the trinity, it is a mystery." Well I need more than that. One could say a lot of things and explain them away as the "mystery of God". And your response, I'm sorry, it sounds ridiculous.
Your answer sounds like someone trying to explain away the inconsistencies, to prove their theory. Other than humans deciding that God was fully human and fully God at the same time; this point is never said as such by the inspired word of God. It is may be felt to be implied, but only to those who want to belive in the trinity.
And you say the "trinity teaches the father and son are distinct persons". The dogma of the trinity teaches that, not the bible...which is our only source to go from. I know you'll say the bible does teach that, but again, only if you believe in the trinity. Do you understand what I mean?
Again, not trying to be offensive to trinitarians here, but come on....enough with the mysticm already. We are discussing "biblical proof", not "biblical theory and speculation". Lets stick to the FACTS we have. We're not discussing personal spiritual beliefs.
~A
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truthseeker1
Goodie!
Just what I need, PROOF from the Bible....Now I have proof that its OK to stone people to death for sleeping around!
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what_is_truth_7
Oh ya about that quote what is truth. I dunno that really started me thinkin that the trinity was right when I read that a while ago. But I did some research about the old old OLD school scriptures, straight up hebrews and greek stuff. And the word Theos was used differently in that line... Which kind of wasn't in favor of the trinity. I'd say read the translations word for word of the hebrew and greek scriptures. Almost all bibles were made after the thought of the trinity came to be and it started kind of favoring the trinity in the translations over the years. Come on imperfect men translated these things, stuff change over time. Good old Telephone Syndrome.
Language/Translation issues:
In New Testament Greek The Father (John 6:27), The Son (Hebrews 1:8), and The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) are all designated with the Greek for GOD (Èåïò)
Deuteronomy 4:31 declares: For Jehovah your God (Elohim ? Plural) is a merciful God (El ? Singular). Other verses that refer to God in the plural are: Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7.
Although there are those who would tell us that Deuteronomy 4:6 proves God is not a trinity (For our God is ONE Jehovah. . . ) yet the word for one (in Hebrew) is that same as that used in Genesis 2:24 about marriage (. . . and they become ONE flesh) which clearly relates to a ?one? made up of several parts.
This man got masters in this stuff..I trust him..sorry! lol Dont know bout that 1st verse in Genesis...but all this point to it being rit.
aw man i posted this and lost so much stuff! :( sux so bad
il come on and do tomo..sad :(
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hooberus
Snapdragon said:
And you say the "trinity teaches the father and son are distinct persons". The dogma of the trinity teaches that, not the bible...which is our only source to go from. I know you'll say the bible does teach that, but again, only if you believe in the trinity. Do you understand what I mean?
So are you saying that the Bible does not teach that the Father and Son are distinct persons? If they are not distinct persons then what is their realationship?
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what_is_truth_7
right! Time to write it all again!
And you say the "trinity teaches the father and son are distinct persons". The dogma of the trinity teaches that, not the bible...which is our only source to go from. I know you'll say the bible does teach that, but again, only if you believe in the trinity. Do you understand what I mean?
Hey you! settle down lol. Any wild comments like this and you have to back it up! :p. I understand but the bible shows the trinity and it is unavoidable I'm finding as I look into it more!
I'm able to refute alot of the trinity....
I think you should do this with all the passages provided so far then..yeah it will take a long while..but it is the only correct way that would be worth doing as it would really proove it and not just be ignorance...and hey I've had to write a lot so why shouldn't you!
I also wonder why it is everyones approach is to try work a way around the Trinity when looking at this issue rather than just looking at the scriptures and what they clearly say.
John 1 should clear it up...
this makes me happy! lmao..its so easy. Explain any other way apart from the Trinity how the word (Jesus) could be with God (2 people) and also is God (2 become 1 person)?! -
Snapdragon
I apologize, Hooberus, I wrote that reply when I was very tired. (I only seem to have time to check this, when I'm needing a nap!) I should have written it more clearly: I meant this:
The bible does teach that the God and Jesus are distinct personalities...however, it is the trinity doctrine (written up at the council of Nicea 325, by men) that says they are seperate, yet the same being. The bible never says that, written in that manner. Every passage people use to prove it, from the bible, falls short of saying it in black and white. (Except for John 1:1 IMO, which I talk about above.) I guess I feel like if it is supposed to be that clear...it should be. Why would there be any question if it was so cut and dried? And clearly I am not the first to question all of this. Look up Arius, and read his arguments. Its all quite interesting.
As I said before, I do not have the answer to this one, I am still searching.
And Truth, you're right I owe you a long one with scripture to back it up. However, today there is no way I can do this. But when I have time, I will sit down with what I do have. Deal?
~A
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what_is_truth_7
however, it is the trinity doctrine (written up at the council of Nicea 325, by men) that says they are seperate, yet the same being. The bible never says that, written in that manner. Every passage people use to prove it, from the bible, falls short of saying it in black and white.
I think you should concider just what is being said even if it isn't in a prefered manner.
Job 40God's Power and Wisdom
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said:
2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?
He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
Job's Response to God
3 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
4 "Behold, I am vile;
What shall I answer You?
I lay my hand over my mouth.
5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer;
Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further."I put these verses up just so we can learn that from Job we shouldn't really be correcting how God does things, complaining or whatever. We can't understand why he does them like that becuause we don't have his knowledge and so we shoulod just take what he has given.
Acts 17: 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
This verse just shows how we should search the scriptures for truth. Its good thing to do to ask yourself if this is what you are doing!? John 5 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
I cam across this one and I thought I'd put it in. Just thought was interesting how even though the person searched the scripture they can still get it so wrong..in this case the jews with Jesus..think hard! Pray hard!And Truth, you're right I owe you a long one with scripture to back it up. However, today there is no way I can do this. But when I have time, I will sit down with what I do have. Deal?
Certainly a deal. I just want to make sure your searching! lol would like you to find truth. I think its so important! For example might I suggest for Jesus not to be part of the Holy Trinity would make him a blasphemer and a liar!?...based on things he said...I'l develop on that if asked..but im way to do something else for now! bye!