The pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton according to Gérard Gertoux

by Narkissos 32 Replies latest jw friends

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  Earnest

  Gérard Gertoux has written extensively on the chronology of the Bible, but there are two additional pieces on the pronunciation of God's name :

  Did Jesus “Je[HoVaH]- salvation” know God’s name?

  Michael Servetus participated in the Protestant Reformation and translated the Hebrew Bible into Latin. In July 1531, he published his De Trinitatis Erroribus (On the Errors of the Trinity) in which he explained clearly that the Trinity was a 3-headed monster. Accordingly, Catholics and Protestants alike condemned him. He was then arrested in Geneva and burnt at the stake as a heretic by order of the city's Protestant governing council. This book was translated into English only in 1932, but still worse, the main arguments from part V were completely distorted. For example he explained that God's name was Iehouah because in Hebrew this name was close to the name of Iesuah (Jesus), or Iehosuah, which means “Iehouah is salvation”. He also knew that according to Paulus de Heredia, a Christian Cabbalist, the meaning of God's name was “He causes to be” (yehauueh), but he never confused the pronunciation of God's name with its Kabbalistic meaning (yehaweh). For Servetus, Iehouah was the only true God.

  God's name: readable but unpronounceable, why?

  The understanding of God's name YHWH is so controversial that it is eventually the controversy of controversies, or the ultimate controversy. Indeed, why most of competent Hebrew scholars propagate patently false explanations about God's name? Why do the Jews refuse to read God's name as it is written and read Adonay "my Lord" (a plural of majesty) instead of it? Why God's name is usually punctuated e,â (shewa, qamats) by the Masoretes what makes its reading impossible, because the 4 consonants of the name YHWH must have at least 3 vowels (long or short) to be read, like the words ’aDoNâY and ’eLoHîM "God" (a plural of majesty), which have 4 consonants and 3 vowels? At last, why the obvious reading "Yehowah", according to theophoric names, which all begin by Yehô-, without exception, is so despised, and why the simple biblical meaning, "He will be" from Exodus 3:14, is rejected.
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  Crazyguy

  There’s no J in Hebrew period! The fact is the old Hebrew language had no vowels that’s why they switched to Aromaic. Vowel points were introduced in the 10 century AD. There’s very little evidence that anyone spoke or wrote Hebrew back in the days previous to the 6th century BC .

  The oldest Torah is only 600 years old the oldest manuscripts that could be called the Old Testament are the original Greek Septuagint which was originally only the first 5 books.

  Any older manuscripts of Old Testament writtings in Hebrew then the Septuagint were just small fragments of wisdom sayings. Oldest manuscripts of gods name and stories and descriptions of the biblical god are found at Ugarit. His name is El and the stories written their were later used as foundation for some of the stories we read today in the Old Testament.
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  Earnest

  Crazyguy, you do not address any of the points raised by Gérhard Gertoux, and those points you do raise are mostly unfounded..

  Crazyguy : There’s no J in Hebrew period!

  Of course there isn't. Hebrew does not use the Roman alphabet. But it has the yod which is equivalent to the Roman 'J'.
  

  Crazyguy : The fact is the old Hebrew language had no vowels that’s why they switched to Aromaic.

  Crs th ld Hbrw lngg hd vwls. They were in the spoken language but not in the written. The Aramaic alphabet also does not have any vowels. In fact, Aramaic is ancestral to the Hebrew alphabet. But all Semitic languages use vowels when speaking. How could it be otherwise?
  

  Crazyguy : There’s very little evidence that anyone spoke or wrote Hebrew back in the days previous to the 6th century BC .

  The Gezer calendar dates back to the 10th century B.C.E. Another inscription from the 10th century was identified in 2010. The Siloam inscription has been dated to the 8th century B.C.E. If these written inscriptions are that old they must have also been speaking the language back then.

  Crazyguy : Any older manuscripts of Old Testament writtings in Hebrew then the Septuagint were just small fragments of wisdom sayings.

  The Dead Sea Scrolls contain almost all the Old Testament writings in Hebrew, in whole or in part.

  While I do not necessarily agree with the theories of Gérard Gertoux on the pronunciation of God's name, I do think that his research is worthy of discussion and should not simply be dismissed by suggesting we cannot possibly know the pronunciation.
  
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  Vanderhoven7

  Ya-Ho-Vah' pleases my ear.

  As one poster said, "If God wanted His name known, He would have made sure it was."

  The question I ask JWs is "Why did God make sure His name does not appear anywhere in the Bible". Why is it that no one knows the Hebrew pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (found almost 7000 time in the Hebrew scriptures).

  There is a very good reason and that is God wanted another name to be dominant.
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  Betheliesalot

  I would surmise that where they found the dead sea scrolls, they also found an ancient HD video recording on a blu-ray dvd disc recorded magically with jesus saying Yahweh this and Yahweh that, the gang in New York would still hold onto Jehovah. They would say it was planted by apostates.
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  Earnest

  Tenacious : For those that are interested ..."Yah" or "Jah" is mentioned many times in the Old Testament which is derived from the word "HalleluJAH." Which is inline with what Christian scholars have been saying all along about the sacred name being spelled something like "Jahweh." So in effect, saying "Hallelujah" is saying praise God or God be praised.

  Whatever the pronunciation may have been in Hebrew, the Greek form of the divine name, JAO, was used by Jews in and around the first century, as discussed in the book "The Earliest Non-Mystical Jewish Use of IAW"; There was an earlier thread about this.
  
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  smiddy3

  The Greek form of the divine name, JAO, was used by Jews in and around the first century, as discussed in the book "The Earliest Non-Mystical Jewish Use of IAW";

  That Greek form of the divine name is not found in " The kingdom Interlinear Translation Of The Greek Scriptures",which presented under the Greek text revised by Westcott and Hort (1948 reprint) A literal word for word translation into English.

  Published by the WTB&TS in 1969.

  By all means correct me if I am wrong . I am going by memory alone as I do not have a copy of that book anymore.
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  Crazyguy

  Earnest the Greek Septuagint is older then the Dead Sea scrolls. I’ll look into those other inscriptions.

  I believe The Tetragrammaton was substituted later to cover up and replace the gods names that were originally in the writings. Old Testament writings in my opinion were old stories gather from around the Levant and didn’t all speak of the same god. That’s why in Jerimiah for example his god never thought of a sacrifice human or animal. Other writings talk about god being from Egypt and there’s even descriptions of Egypts god Ra in one of the minor prophets. There Egyptian influences all over the place in these writings as well as Greek.
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  slimboyfat

  The fact is the old Hebrew language had no vowels that’s why they switched to Aromaic.

  Yeah but some speculate the switch might have had an olfactory cause as well.

  The above quoted post got a thumbs up from someone! Whereas Earnest’s factual responses got none. There is no justice in this world! (I would have given Earnest a thumb up but for some reason the thumbs buttons don’t work for me)

  I can’t say I’m terribly in favour of the use of “maggot” for Gerard Gertoux either, as on the previous page. What is that all about?

  The quality of discussions these days hovers between depressing and hilarious.
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  Earnest

  smiddy3 : That Greek form of the divine name is not found in " The kingdom Interlinear Translation Of The Greek Scriptures", which presented under the Greek text revised by Westcott and Hort (1948 reprint) A literal word for word translation into English.

  Smiddy, you are quite right, the Greek form of the divine name is not found in KIT or in the Westcott & Hort Greek text. Both Greek and Hebrew forms of the divine name are found in copies of the LXX up to and including the first century. After that the divine name in the LXX was replaced by kyrios (lord). We do not have any manuscripts of the New Testament from the first century so all we can say is that readers of the LXX in the first century would have read a form of the divine name. This would, of course, include Paul who quoted from it. If he wrote what he read then the divine name was also replaced by kyrios in his letters after the first century.
  

  Crazyguy : Earnest the Greek Septuagint is older then the Dead Sea scrolls.

  The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to the period from the third century B.C.E to the first century C.E. As the Greek Septuagint was only written between the third and second century B.C.E it cannot be older than the DSS. The best that can be said is that there are some LXX manuscripts that are contemporary with, and are included among, the Dead Sea Scrolls.

  slimboyfat : I would have given Earnest a thumb up but for some reason the thumbs buttons don’t work for me

  Thank you for the thought but my observation is that the number of thumbs, either up or down, have nothing to do with the quality of the posts. I would not lose any sleep over it.