QUESTIONS ON "EVIL" (page 2)

Seeker

Those are valid thoughts, Jan, and you're right, what I said didn't go far enough. Evil may come from selfishness, but on a high enough level so does eating breakfast come from selfishness.

Maybe I should ammend my thought to: Evil comes from a selfishness that goes beyond societal bounds.

Society isn't bothered by the fact that you eat breakfast to, selfishly, look after your body's needs. It views that selfishness as normal and needed. Yet evil can be viewed even here, if you are a vegetarian and you decry that piece of bacon as an act of evil against pigs...

Moving further down the evil scale, you have forms of selfishness that are recognized as truly selfish, even mean and harmful, but not quite evil. The father who insists on having the best portions of the meal for himself, leaving his wife and children to have the leftovers, is an example of something truly mean. Some would even call this man evil, but most would say it is just an example of a selfish pig.

Moving further down the evil scale, you have the father who locks his children in the basement and doesn't let them eat until they die of starvation. Universally recognized as evil.

What's the difference between these three examples? The actions grow more and more starkly wrong, and more and more universally viewed as evil.

unclebruce

Whatzamatta eyore .. you been chewing sour grapes again? (don't tell me you're evil - you're just an ugly bloke with some body chemistry issues

Francois

UncleBruce: "Francoice - I love your posts man - what was it you had for breakfast? Greenbeans and riceburgers? .. I'll slide along and give you space ;)" Thanks, um, I think. Would you translate that for me? That part about the breakfast. Ya have to remember that I'm a southerner, thus dumb.

Introspection: Actually, that's a paraphrase. I have quite a few translations of the TTC myself. I found the only way to really comprehend its meaning is to read several translations. It's such a laconic work to start with. But if you can get its meaning, there's truth there, ultimate truth, perfect truth, beautiful truth, lovely truth...releasing truth.

When you review one of your translations, you'll run across the right passage...it's in the Tao

My $0.02

unclebruce

Francoice - yesterday I read one of your posts about being a Georgia boy and you had some green beans and rice something or rather for breakfast (life must be a gas). I can't agree more about the TaoTeChing, it's uplifting like little else.

cheers, unc (only penguins and seals live further south than me ;)

JanH

Seeker,

Maybe I should ammend my thought to: Evil comes from a selfishness that goes beyond societal bounds.

So, evil is merely deviation from societal norms?

- Jan
--
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]

Outaservice

Hi ya Tina,

I don't know if you saw it or not, but the May 21st, issue of NEWSWEEK magazine's feature article was entitled 'EVIL, WHAT MAKES PEOPLE GO WRONG?'

If you would like to see a copy of it, e-mail me and tell me where to send it.

Warm regards,

Outaservice (but still counting my time)

Introspection

Francoise, I have to go a step farther than Unclebruce and explain that it isn't that I don't like the idea, I don't believe the idea of evil as we know it in the English langauge exists in the Tao Te Ching or the Chinese language, which happens to be my first language. I actually looked in my preferred copy (Wu) and didn't find such a passage, unless you're talking about the part in chapter 58 where it talks about good fortune relying on bad and one hiding in the other, which is of course a pattern in much of the TTC. If this is the case, then strictly speaking that passage does not talk about evil either. The closest thing that seems to come to the term evil in the Chinese language is a word that literally means crookedness, and basically implies wickedness, but that's still not the same. The only thing the Tao Te Ching talks about is 'that which is against Tao', and that is never spoken of as one side of a complementary whole, because it is the whole. It simply says that which is against Tao soon ceases to be.

"It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease."--Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now

Seeker

So, evil is merely deviation from societal norms?

No, for a person could hop around on one leg, certainly a deviation from societal norms, but hardly an evil act.

What I said was selfishness that deviates from societal norms. If that person's hopping on one leg were to cause (somehow) the death of someone, and the person continued to hop anyway, it would be a selfish act of his that caused the death of someone else -- an evil act, for society would condemn it.

I guess that gets into the question, if society doesn't condemn it, is it evil? I tend to think there are certain acts that are universally condemned, but if they weren't, I suppose to that society it wouldn't be evil, would it? We would think so, with our societal norms, but to them it would be normal and natural.

Maybe evil isn't universal, but depends on the point of view of the observer, and that gets us right back to what you said, Jan, isn't it?

unclebruce

Thanks Introspection, very interesting indeed. I don't have my copy of the Tao handy but will be looking this up the first chance I get. As I said it is the one thing about the Tao that never rang true for me .. perhaps Lao Tzu truly was the wisest of men.

thanks again, unclebruce.

AGuest

Hello, Tina-Girl... and may you have peace!

The answer is quite simple, and my Lord has permitted me to share it with you:

First, NONE of us are born inherently KNOWING good. Good... is TAUGHT... and learned. Second, once we are TAUGHT good... it is up to us to CHOOSE good... and reject bad. Unfortunately, MOST humans don't reject bad... but rationalize and justify it. From the smallest lie... to blowing up an entire building full of people... to stealing folks husbands/wives in the name of love... to cheating on husbands/wives in the name of weakness... to carrying on another generation of domestic abuse ("I was abused"), to whatever.

From DAY ONE... mankind was given a CHOICE: choose good and reject bad... and live... or choose bad... and die. God did not, has not, and WILL not MAKE us do anything. He has and will simply to continue to give us CHOICE. Thus, He SAID to Israel: "I set BEFORE you... blessing... and malediction. CHOOSE." And my Lord gave us a choice of two (2) 'roads'... a broad and spacious one... and a narrow and cramped one.

Because CHOOSING good requires WAY more effort than doing bad... you can guess which ones gets the most 'pings', yes?

Even my Lord, when born in the flesh, had to LEARN what was good... so that he could REJECT the bad. But he didn't come out knowing it.

Isaiah 7:16

Evil... is a choice. We CAN blame it all on God (for those mad at him), or on Satan (for those mad at [i]him[\i]). But, in truth, we have no one to blame but ourselves. Satan is not going to stand before the Judgment Seat FOR us. Each will have to answer for him or herself.

Many of us are misled with reference to what Satan's TRUE crime is: Satan does not MAKE us do bad (for those who rely on the excuse, "the Devil made me do it"). Satan can MAKE you do no more than you are WILLING to do. What Satan DOES... is exploit what is already IN you! And the ONLY way to fight that is:

1. KNOW what is IN you... KNOW the 'works' of YOUR flesh, your OWN weaknesses... [i]acknowledge[\i] them... to yourself and God... and others, if necessary... so that you can ask for help to 'conquer' them;

2. Work to REMOVE it by using one of the fruits of the spirit.

Otherwise, Satan will do what he did to Eve... exploit HER 'desire'.

James 1:14, 15

Satan KNOWS the 'inclination of man', that it IS bad... and he will use whatever he can to bring that bad out. Want to kill a building of people? Find a young man who is angry at the government, exploit that anger... and entice him to do YOUR 'dirty work'. Yeah, you'll pay... in the end... but YOUR end is way farther off than his. And, you killed 163 plus one people in the process!

Satan uses us, Tina. And we... allow ourselves to BE used. But... we don't have to. We CAN... choose good. Unfortunately, most folks don't WANT to choose good. They LIKE 'bad'... and justify it. From lying to fornication to idolatry, to drunkeness, to stealing, to... whatever. Hey, it's MY life! And indeed, it is. Too bad, others suffer because folks are just living THEIR life.

But it will not always be so. For they... are having their reward in full... now. The best, however, is yet to come.

I bid you peace... and love... and I remain...

Your servant, sister and a slave of Christ,

SJ

QUESTIONS ON "EVIL"

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