Blood recycling machine bought by JW community

by Wallflower 19 Replies latest watchtower medical

• 

  glitter

  Do ordinary JWs know all these loopholes or do they think that "no blood" means "*no blood*"?
  
  I can see the Hospital Liason Committee getting involved and clairifying things when children are involved, but would the hospital just take an adult at their word and refuse/risk the operation?
• 

  Wallflower

  I always thought that the Bible's view of blood was one of respect for blood as precious to God.

  LyinEyes, this was my opinion. It was so sacred it had to be poured out on the ground!!

  Actually, it is now permissible for blood to be taken to another location, treated, returned to the patient's location and reinfused.

  Right, so this down to conscience. Everything is a conscience issue. Whether you want to smoke, fornicate, take blood or even run naked through a Circuit Assembly. The difference is that some things you can be disciplined for - smoking, fornicating, while others you might be just depending on how the doctrine is viewed these days - organ transplants in the 70's, cannibalism then but today it's OK. Wasn't the criteria about how others might be 'stumbled' by your actions. For some old fashioned, staunch JW the thought of a blood transfusion, whether with their own blood or not is abhorent and that would be a cause for stumbling. I've been out of the faith for 20 years and this surprised me! When it does finally become a conscience issue, watch the WT move the money one way and the responsibilty another. This will be bigger than 1976 ('cos Armageddon didn't come in '75).
• 

  BluesBrother

  Like many others, I found this whole process of re defining the blood issue confusing and it contributed to my realisation that the dub world is just talmudic and is now indulging in Pharasaical hair splitting.

  Like Lyin Eyes says, It used to be simple. Blood was sacred and we avoided it because of "Gods law" or so we believed. But the waters are now so muddy that very few know what they are allowed and what is banned . The long medical words mean that few can uderstand or pronounce them . The dubs of my family acquaintance just "Leave it to Jehovah" and hope for the best . They will ask the elders should the need arise. They blindly sign and carry a Blood card , that they do not understand either

  I have only learned what I have from the internet , where things are explained
• 

  plmkrzy

  How on earth did the JW community manage to raise the money for this unique machine?

  Don't know but a former friend of mine who is a JW, well her mother in Palm Springs took over a clinic from the doctor she worked for (now dead) that was in the business of doing exactly that. It was a form of treatment that he perscribed for anyone that wanted to "feel better" It's called "Blood Cleansing". Anyway, before I stopped communicating with her she told me her mother was looking for investors to keep the business going and she needed $100,000.00

  I would say it was a longshot that the two are related but who knows.
• 

  Wallflower

  TD said :

  JW's in fact donate these machines to hospitals and medical institutions on a regular basis.

  plmkrzy said:

  I would say it was a longshot that the two are related but who knows.

  Is this now WT policy? Are their hundreds of these machines in hospitals all over the world donated by concerned JWs trying to extend their life without offending their consciences. All at $100,000 at a time. If the Org did donate towards the cost of each one, they would be condoning this type of treatment, which goes against earlier statements.

  As BluesBrother noted

  I have only learned what I have from the internet , where things are explained

  Most JWs stay away from the internet, or if they don't, stay away from apostate sites (another conscience matter), so how do they know that it's sort of OK now? I can imagine my JW mothers face if she was ever faced with the option to have a autologous transfusion - she'd wave her Blood card about frantically and die with an unblemished conscience.

  Sad.
• 

  TD

  Is this now WT policy? Are their hundreds of these machines in hospitals all over the world donated by concerned JWs trying to extend their life without offending their consciences. All at $100,000 at a time. If the Org did donate towards the cost of each one, they would be condoning this type of treatment, which goes against earlier statements.

  Just about every large metropolitan area in the U.S. has at least one medical institution running a bloodless program (sometimes more) and usually every one of these has at least one blood salvage machine. (sometimes more) I'm sure the situation in the UK is virtually identical.

  These machines cost between $40,000 and $60,000 each. Of course they have not all been donated by JWs and even among those that have, I don't know if the WTS was directly involved in financing the donations or not. If by some small chance, they were there are a couple of ways you could look at it.

  It is in the interest of the WTS to see to it that bloodless programs are as successful as possible. The fact that JW patients do quite well in scheduled surgery is played for all it is worth to promote the idea that the JW stance is not only scripturally correct, but medically viable as well. If refusing blood was in fact a death sentence most of the time (as opposed to only some of the time) the outcry not only from individuals, but from governments would become ear-splitting.

  On the other hand, you could also look at any WTS involvement that may exist in these donations as evidence that this organization does care for its members, at least at some level. It would mark a departure from a long tradtion of spurning charity.

  Also in fairness to the Witnesses, they have tried several times to explain these "loopholes" to their members. It never seems to work. The doctrine defies common sense, it is too arbitrary and way too complicated.
• 

  willyloman

  Also in fairness to the Witnesses, they have tried several times to explain these "loopholes" to their members. It never seems to work. The doctrine defies common sense, it is too arbitrary and way too complicated.

  An excellent point. People just don't get it. That's partly because, as you say, it is complicated. Another reason is, and I became acutely aware of this in my years in the troof, JWs just don't study. The vast majority of people sitting in the KH on Sunday have not only not underlined their WT magazine, they haven't even read it. If the mags came shrink-wrapped, the conductor would need to add another 30 seconds to his intro each week to give people time to tear off the plastic coating.

  Same is true at all other meetings. All those books and magazines, and nobody reads. You'd have a very hard time finding more than a handful of dubs who have read even some of the info on blood that's been printed over the years. Most JWs assume they'll be told what to do by "mother" or her reps, and they'll just do it. A little over two years ago, I sat in a KH and listened to an elder give the annual talk on blood that coincides with the issuing of the year's new medical emergency cards, and was stunned at how out of date his information was. He not only missed all the significant changes of the past decade, but was actually relaying information to the friends that was flat wrong. After the meeting I mentioned this to a couple of other elders, and they weren't at all concerned. They both felt he did "a pretty good job with a complex subject." That's when I realized neither of them knew exactly what our current teaching was!

  One year later, another elder gave the talk and said "some people think you can just go to one of these bloodless surgery centers at the hospital and you don't have to worry about it, but you can't trust them."

  This was an astonishing statement, given the fact that the program was developed and run by witnesses was one of the WT Society's "showcase" programs.

  This is not a group of Rhodes scholars.
• 

  blondie

  A bloodless surgery center in our area had an open house for the JWs in the area. Many came and some talks were given. Every JW patted themselves on the back on how forward thinking they were. The center had one request, that any JW wanting their services had to have a healthcare proxy on file before they could be treated. After 6 months, only a few trickled in. The center was not happy; the sister who was the RN in charge of the program did not understand why no JWs were sending in the proxies

  Blondie
• 

  Stephanus

  The center had one request, that any JW wanting their services had to have a healthcare proxy on file before they could be treated.

  Can you explain what that means, Blondie? And why the non-response by Dubs?
• 

  blondie

  I think I have mentioned on other posts re blood that in the US (and other countries) there is a legal document a person can draw up granting authority to an individual to make healthcare decisions for them when they are unconscious. The WTS has their own version (adjustable to the US state they live in) that they encourage JWs to fill out because they are a stronger legal document. This covers more than blood issues (such as organ transplants, resuscitation, extraordinary measures to sustain life, etc.). The clinic wanted each JW they might treat to already have one filled out and filed with them. It would outline specifically what nonblood treatment they would accept.

  Why did the WTS have an elaborate procedure of handing out the "blood cards" and have the book study overseer make sure they were filled out and signed? Because JWs, if left to their own devices were not filling them out. Then when they had emergency surgery, they would have nothing in writing saying how they felt about blood. It made life difficult for the brothers on the HLC.

  Some of the biggest offenders in this case were the elders themselves. They loved the attention at the seminar the clinic put on, giving talks and strutting around. But then when it was time to fill out the healthcare proxy.....

  Maybe it is that JWs live in denial thinking they will never have to face the decision whether to take a blood transfusion or not. Just like they think they will never grow old and die "in this system." Old age has taken them by surprise and even death. Millions now living will/may never die. But individuals will.

  Blondie