by Sirona 60 Replies latest watchtower bible
I agree with Ray Franz: Christianity itself is the true faith, not any one religion.
Christianity is a religion. It's not "the true faith" or "a personal relationship with Jesus" or whatever else you may call it. It's a religion with gods and rules and holy books and myriad sects and denominations
Some interesting responses.
I'd like to get some more specifics about your Christian beliefs.
Do you believe that God will destroy non-christians in a battle of armageddon? If not, what is armageddon according to the bible?
Do you believe that we continue after death? If so, where do we "go"? and do our actions in life determine where we go?
Do we have salvation by faith or by works? Or both? Or none?
Is God separate from us? Or within us? Both?
I'm personally very accepting of other religions / beleifs. I accept the right of anyone to decide that they are Christian. The only trouble I've ever had with Christians is that they don't always accept me and my beliefs. I am pagan, and they think that I have to be Christian (the exact reason I'm not sure. "to be saved" whatever that actually means). I'm not bashing anyone - honestly that is the only problem I've had with some Christians.
I started this thread because I know JWs who say that they're the only True christians. I thought maybe I'd print some responses on this thread to demonstrate that others interpret scripture just as avidly and come to different conclusions....
Sirona
Well, I'd like to ask a question Love_Truth;
I choose to believe that all Scripture as inspired of God.
The red highlight is mine and I congratulate you on your honesty.
... it is impossible to prove any of the above viewpoints, ...
The highlight is yours.
What I do not understand is this;
If not conforming your life to these viewpoints (or beliefs) results in a negative outcome (i.e. if someone not living his life as a Christian results in a disadvantage, perhaps even destruction), then how is it fair if these viewpoints are unprovable and regional in their expression?
It's like saying god will punish those who don't guess right and who are born in the wrong place - as I'm sure many peope are Christians through accident of birth and would have ended up as a Muslim or a Hindu if born elsewhere.
As you argue the viewpoints are not provable, citing that place of birth can't be considered unfair as people now have the opportunity to hear the Gospel worldwide doesn't work - as you admit that the viewpoints are not provable.
I am very interested to get a straight answer on this from you or those who believe similar things.
Sirona,
I appreciate your questions.
I am of two minds;
Do you believe that God will destroy non-christians in a battle of armageddon? If not, what is armageddon according to the bible?
No, this idea is unbiblical.
the 14th Chapter of Zechariah is one of the best areas of the Bible to find such information. Armageddon is a battle in which Jesus divinely intervenes to prevent the destruction of Israel from surrounding armies that would surely annihilate her. Your religion has nothing to do with what happens to you in this battle. A Christian attacking Israel would be just as much and enemy as a Muslim or Buddhist. Its a limited engagement in the middle East.
Do you believe that we continue after death?
Christian mind: Yes, soul sleep is not explicitly stated in the bible. The idea of being completely destroyed and being rebuilt is illogical when one considers the logistics of cloning. Many passages in the bible say humans live on in an altered state beyond the death of the body.
Scientific mind: Probably. I believe logically that there is a God and divine interevention created life as well as the diversity of life. It is only logical for me to assume he would have something to say, if not now then after we die.
If so, where do we "go"?
Christian mind: If you are atoned of sin then you go to heaven, beneath the "alter" and await the ressurection of the body.
Scientific mind: I cannot logically answer that. Dimensional coordinates are an intrinsic property to OUR universe.
and do our actions in life determine where we go?
Christian mind: I seriously doubt it but I can hope. We are certainly judged by our actions though.
Do we have salvation by faith or by works? Or both? Or none?
Christian mind: Faith alone by grace alone.
Is God separate from us? Or within us? Both?
Christian mind: God is greatly separate and separated from us.
Scientific mind: Unknown, could be any of the three, for now.
I'm personally very accepting of other religions / beleifs. I accept the right of anyone to decide that they are Christian. The only trouble I've ever had with Christians is that they don't always accept me and my beliefs. I am pagan, and they think that I have to be Christian (the exact reason I'm not sure. "to be saved" whatever that actually means). I'm not bashing anyone - honestly that is the only problem I've had with some Christians.
People that refuse to think rationally are really annoying to me, but it is also understandable. Its so hard to believe in the unbelievable to begin with that people dont want to complicate it by having an open mind.
FirstInLine:
A few questions. It seems unlike Love_Truth you are claiming that you have absolute proof, and that it's not merely your opinion we are dealing with here. Is that correct?
My completely scientific mind has come up with these beliefs through observation
There is a creator to the universe.
People object: If there is a god why does he let bad things happen to people?
A-- there is no reason to insist that God necessarily knows about the human condition or that he can communicate with humans.
Well, I agree that IF there is a god (for the purpose of discussion a creator) (more on that later) then I personally see no proof it has had anything to do with us. It's what I call the wood shavings model; we are imagining ourselves part of something, but we're no more important in the scheme of things than wood shavings on a carpenters floor.
B-- there is no reason to insist God can intervene in this Universe once it was set into motion.
Mmm, but if we add A to B we end up with a bloody useless god, don't we? It can't communicate, it can't intervene, it seems it can be ignored... if not why not?
People object: If there is a god why is there no proof?A-- the proof is all around, people are asking for supernatural proof - see answers to previous objection
The proof is all around? I would love for you to show me the proof in a seperate thread. I utterly disagree that people are looking for supernatural proof; well, some maybe want the lightning bolts etc., but a book that said it was inspired and tested as inspired would not be supernatural, but would be proof. But you say there's 'proof all around,' so I will await your thread on the proofs of god with great interest (although I will continue to breathe whilst I wait; you might be different but I've been told by people that they'd prove god before and am still waiting on them).
Strictly speaking logically.
I love that phrase; at least half the time when I use it or something similar I am basically running an argument up a flag pole and seeing who salutes...
EITHER **** There is a God. He/They exist in a "higher" universe that we are not able to understand and created our universe for reasons we cannot understand. He/They cannot contact us and probably are not aware of our existence. There will probably be no afterlife.
In which case god is irrelevent to human life...
OR**** There is a God. He/They are the ultimate Gamers. He/They created life on the Earth inlcuding Humans. He/They are aware of the Human condition but for his/their own reasons do not intervene to prevent human suffering. He/They do not intervene to make themselves or their intentions known readily. Its possible he/they have not started or helped any religions and enjoy seeing speculation of him/them swirl. In this scenario an afterlife is waiting and we will find out what it all meant.
In which case I think god's a monster and will gladly spit in his eye should I have the opportunity. Problem with treating intelligent, self-aware creatures (even if less intelligent than the experimenter) like a science experiment is that they have their own opinions about it. If god doesn't like that, it's its problem.
Anyway, I'll be interested in your answers and in the thread on the proofs of god all around us...
Abaddon,
You must understand that Christianity (among other religions) is an irrational arbitrary religion to begin with. At its core is the idea that human beings in their current state are not good enough for God to accept. If you want to be accepted by God all you have to do is do exactly as some guys who claimed to hear god's voice say and believe the things they tell you. Then because of what God has done through the second person of his being you can be made acceptable and not be punished for the things you deserve to be punished for.
There are similar occurrences in the world. For insantce the United States sends in the military to help some people defeat their tyrants but not all. Many populations are allowed to be wiped out almost entirely while we bend over backwards to help others. But we still do it like that and we are still on top.
In addition keep in mind that if there is a God(s), and I believe there is: he/they either cannot do anything to help us and therefore probably did not create us or did create us, can help us when we are in need but doesnt. I think the latter is true logically. This tells me God is a very complicated mysterious fellow no matter whose theology newsletter you subscribe to. Continuing with that train of thought, if God did have a religion, a strange esoteric religion with arbitrary ordinances and rites would not be too far out of the question. The illogic of Christianity may be one of the better selling points of it since a logical mind would see the illogic in God's actions (or lack there of) very quickly.
I dont think that God is very understandable to begin with. His motives cannot be logically considered.
Would a nice little cookie cutter religion with all the anwers and no mystery that fits neatly in a box seem more divine or man-made and Disneyesque?
Is not our condition mysterious to begin with? Is not religion itself a rather strange and mysterious way for the Ultimate Authority to govern?
Abaddon:
It seems unlike Love_Truth you are claiming that you have absolute proof, and that it's not merely your opinion we are dealing with here. Is that correct?
Are you insane? When did I ever say anything that was absolute? You are being REACTIONARY
It's what I call the wood shavings model; we are imagining ourselves part of something, but we're no more important in the scheme of things than wood shavings on a carpenters floor.
When your wood shavings take on the shape of bunny-rabbits going hippity-hop, reproducing and building skyskrapers, thermonuclear warheads, colliders... well you may have missed something in what exactly consitutes a bona fide "shaving."
The proof is all around? I would love for you to show me the proof in a seperate thread. I utterly disagree that people are looking for supernatural proof; well, some maybe want the lightning bolts etc., but a book that said it was inspired and tested as inspired would not be supernatural, but would be proof. But you say there's 'proof all around,' so I will await your thread on the proofs of god with great interest (although I will continue to breathe whilst I wait; you might be different but I've been told by people that they'd prove god before and am still waiting on them).
You sound real stuck-up. You are also hijacking. You almost sound offended by the mere fact that I believe there is a God with a strong conviction of logic. I am not going to even try to open your mind for you THAT WOULD BE AN IMPOSSIBLE FEAT. I would love for you to have an open mind.
In which case god is irrelevent to human life...
Did it sound as though I was implying otherwise. Thank you for making sure the reader understands the intent of my comments. I am glad I have such a witty editor deciphering my words for the untrained masses of bafoons that may have figured out what was so obvious to begin with.
In which case I think god's a monster and will gladly spit in his eye should I have the opportunity.
Way to give someone that could really f*** you up the benefit of the doubt. You sound like such a little shit. You have such a bitter and closed mind it is really sick. Have you given up all your possesions and spent all of your time helping to end human suffering? I await your answer and trust you are not some hypocrite.
Anyway, I'll be interested in your answers and in the thread on the proofs of god all around us...
Im not going to bother. You are obviously intelligent and if you are so willing to argue against it so passionately then what would be the point? .... My frustration and your delite. Im not going to give you the satisfaction. Do you see the difference between yourself and Sirona?
Abaddon,
Whilst I like reading your arguments, I'd like to say that I intended to give Christians a thread in which they could talk about their beliefs in comparison to the JW version of Christianity. By asking for 100% proof of things they say they believe in, I suspect you may be discouraging more christians from giving their viewpoint on this thread.
What I'm trying to do is 1. Understand christianity better (because my idea of it is tainted by JWism 2. Gather reasonings and biblical references that I can use when speaking to JWs to offer an alternative viewpoint. In particular my JW mother is devoutly Christian, but is struggling with the Borg, and I'd like to be able to give her a good alternative biblical argument. In particular the "saved by grace not by works" teaching, which could help her with her guilt at not living up to JWism.
I think that being a Christian (non-cult type) is better than being a JW, and freeing anyone that way would help them in the long run. You may believe that leaving one false teaching for another isn't worthwhile, but I think anything is worthwhile as a stepping stone, and who am I to say that there is no benefit or truth anywhere in Christianity?
Sirona
First in Line and Love_Truth (and other Christians):
I'd like to talk more about the saved by Grace idea, for the reasons stated in my post above to Abaddon.
Please provide biblical references if you can for this idea. I'd love to be able to refer JWs to these pages of the bible when they say we must attend meetings / do works in order to be approved of by God.
First - I'm impressed by your honesty about not having all the answers. Why do you think you've chosen Christianity?
Sirona
Sirona,
I have to go to bed. I will gladly answer your questions later today.
