John 7:38 is a weird verse, " The one believing into me, as the Scripture said," Out of his belly/womb will flow rivers of living water." It claims to be quoting scripture, yet it certainly is not quoting directly any OT passage known. The folowing is from a conversation at another forum.
Is John 7:38 a reference to the Garden of Eden?
In Refutation of all Heresies 6:9, Hyppolitus writes about the representation of paradise in the system attributed to Simon Magus. It talks first about the generation of man and the necessity to be reformed in the image of the spirit -
"When, therefore, according to these (heretics), there ensued some such arrangement, and (one) similar (to it) of the world, the Deity, he says, proceeded to form man, taking clay from the earth. ...After this comes a comparsion of the Garden of Eden to the womb -
"How then, he says, and in what manner, does God form man? In Paradise; for so it seems to him. Grant Paradise, he says, to be the womb; and that this is a true (assumption) the Scripture will teach, when it utters the words, "I am He who forms thee in thy mother's womb." For this also he wishes to have been written so. Moses, he says, resorting to allegory, has declared Paradise to be the womb, if we ought to rely on his statement. If, however, God forms man in his mother's womb--that is, in Paradise--as I have affirmed, let Paradise be the womb, and Edem the after-birth, "a river flowing forth from Edem, for the purpose of irrigating Paradise," (meaning by this) the navel. This navel, he says, is separated into four principles; for on either side of the navel are situated two arteries, channels of spirit, and two veins channels of blood."
The passage continues making ever more bizarre comparisons between the garden of Eden and physical anatomy. (Hyppolitus' motive in writing is of course to make the Gnostic ideas look absurd.) What is interesting is the comparison of the womb to paradise where man is formed and the idea of the spirit flowing along the umbilical cord to man. The word used by John to mean belly also seems capable of signifying the womb. Perhaps the John passage should be read "Out of his womb shall flow living waters". (Gnostic thought of humans as androgynous) This suggests that the scripture reference is a Midrash on Genesis 2:10 -
"And a river is going out from Eden to water the garden, and from thence it is parted, and hath become four chief [rivers];"
The river is the spirit which flows out of the womb/paradise to irrigate those who are saved.
If in fact this passage at 7:38 is to be understood as explained above then this suggests very early Gnostic influence.
Leaky Belly Button
by peacefulpete 11 Replies latest watchtower bible
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peacefulpete
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peacefulpete
Another poster felt a possible influence was the apocraphal book Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) written circ.200BC.
Sirach 24, which as we have discussed before, was a fertile field for creating details to the Jesus figure.
Personified Wisdom, as a divine pre-existant being, speaks of the waters of Wisdom. Verses 30ff, the writer himself becomes a conduit of these salvic waters.
Sirach 24
30 As for me, I was like a canal from a river, like a water channel into a garden.
31 I said, "I will water my garden and drench my flower-beds." And lo, my canal became a river, and my river a sea. 32 I will again make instruction shine forth like the dawn, and I will make it clear from far away." -
Satanus
Wow. In that context, the garden of eden as the womb makes a lot of sense. You are suggesting that the eden story is gnostic?
SS
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peacefulpete
We do know that the Eden story has very ancient precedents in other mideastern cult. The Jewish priesthood adopted it centuries before any Gnotic movement began. However the Gnostics no doubt had their uniquely allegorical take on it, possibly more closely resembling the original symbolism of the myth. It seems possible that this is the influence for John 7.38.
At least it seems closer than the story about Moses hitting a rock and bringly water from it. -
Nosferatu
My ex had a leaky bellybutton. It was kinda strange. The thing would just fill up with a clear fluid. Didn't smell too great.
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Leolaia
PP.....I'm actually working on a list of apocryphal and pseudepigraphal citations and allusions in the New Testament and Apostolic Fathers, and that was one of the scriptures I was researching. The γραφη quoted in John 7:38 cannot be explained satisfactorily from any OT parallels or rabbinic traditions and was probably drawn from an apocryphal source no longer extant:
ποταμοι εκ της κοιλιας αυτου ρευσουσιν υδατος ζwντος --- potamoi ek tes koilias autou rheusousin hudatos zontos --- "Out of his belly (ek tes koilias autou) shall flow (rheusousin) rivers of living water (potamoi ... hudatos zontos)" (John 7:38)
There are partial parallels, such as Psalm 78:15-16 (LXX) which, referring to the waters of Meribah, says that "he brought forth water (hudor) also out of a rock (ek petras), and caused waters (hudata) to run down like rivers (potamous)." Another partial parallel is Zechariah 14:8 which says that "in that day living waters (hudor zon) shall flow (exeleusetai) out of Jerusalem (ex Ierousalem)." Jeremiah 2:13 refers to God as "a fountain (pegen) of living waters (hudatos zoes)." Isaiah 30:25 refers to "streams (meteorou) of water (hudor)". But the wording and thought in John 7:38 is different, particularly in locating the waters in one's koilia and the use of the future active indicative of rheo "to flow," which constitutes an NT hapax legomenon. There is a connection between koilia and hudor "water" elsewhere in John: in John 3:4-5, Jesus likens being "born of water (hudatos) and the Spirit" in baptism with "entering the mother's womb (koilian) a second time". The expression ek tes koilias autou "out of his/her belly" is consistent with a birth metaphor which is itself consistent with the life-giving properties of the water. The closest parallel would be in Isaiah 66:7-12 which refers to Israel being reborn from a womb (steiras, not koilias) and being nursed by Zion "like a river (potamos)" and "like an overflowing stream (kheimarrous)." Ezekiel 47 in particular elaborates the notion of the restored Temple as flowing streams and rivers of life, "for wherever the water goes it brings health, and life teems wherever the river flows" (47:9). We therefore have a cluster of different motifs in the OT that contribute to the saying in John 7:38.
These various motifs from the OT Prophets were surely not assembled together by the Johannine author, who cites a pre-existing "scripture" (graphe), and just such an assembling of OT motifs occurs regularly in intertestamental pseudepigrapha, particularly Jewish apocalyptic literature. The inspiration behind of the text in John 7:38 appears to be one that designates the eschatological Zion or Jerusalem as a woman who provides rivers of life-giving water; there are traces of this in Revelation, of the woman in labor and giving birth to the eschatological kingdom in Revelation 12:1-2 and heavenly Jerusalem described "as beautiful as a bride all dressed for her husband" in 21:2, wherein flows "the river of water of life (potamon hudatos zoes)" (22:1), an expression clearly dependent on Ezekiel 47. 4 Ezra also draws on the same theme of Zion as a woman who gave birth to the Temple:
"This is the meaning of the vision. The woman who appeared to you a little while ago, whom you saw mourning and began to console, but you do not now see the form of a woman, but an established city has appeared to you, and as for her telling you about the misfortune of her son, this is the interpretation: This woman whom you saw, whom you now behold as an established city, is Zion. And as for her telling you that she was barren for thirty years, it was because there were three thousand years in the world before any offering was offered in it. And after three thousand years Solomon built the city, and offered offerings; then it was then that the barren woman bore a son. And as for her telling you that she brought him up with much care, that was the period of residence in Jerusalem. And as for her saying to you, 'When my son entered his wedding chamber he died,' and that misfortune had overtaken her, that was the destruction that befell Jerusalem." (4 Ezra 10:40-48)
A good candidate for the original source of the scripture quoted in John 7:38 might then be the Apocryphon of Ezekiel, of which only fragments survive but which show dependence on the OT Prophets and an apocalyptic orientation. One of the existing fragments (Fr. 3), explicitly describes a vision of a heifer giving birth, which (if related to 1 Enoch 90:37) may refer to the coming of the Messianic dominion. It would not be inconceivable for an apocalyptic vision to describe rivers of life flowing from a womb. Another possibility is that John is drawing his "scripture" from the Wisdom literature, which would describe in feminine language how Wisdom (=Sophia) provides life-giving water from her womb. Since John already draws heavily on the Wisdom literature, this possibility is also quite attractive. It is also probable that the two traditions have merged: Sirach 24:10-11 refers to Sophia as "established in Zion; in the beloved city he has given me rest," and v. 25-31 has Sophia making wisdom brim "like the Pishon, like the Tigris ... like the Euphrates, like the Jordan ... like the Nile, like the Gihon ... like a conduit from a river, like a watercourse running into a garden ... my conduit has grown into a river, and my river has grown into a sea." A third possibility is a pagan source. There is a rough parallel in Buddhist literature:
"That is the Tathagato's knowledge of the twin miracle? In this case, the Tathagato works a twin miracle unrivalled by disciples; from his upper body proceeds a flame of fire, and from his lower body proceeds a torrent of water." (Patisambhida, 1.53)
Hope this helps.
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peacefulpete
Thanks leolaia. The Buddhist reference would probably be known to 1rst c. Gnostics. Maybe Hippolytus was refuting a Gnostic tradition inspired by the Buddhist?
BTW I'd still like your take on the Josephus reference to James and Jesus being the spark that started the James tradition. How about the thread about Luke 9:50, how screwed up was my comment? -
Leolaia
What thread about Luke 9:50?
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Narkissos
Other parallels:
In G John:
John 4:14 those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.
John 19:34 one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out. (Cf. 1John 5:6ff).
The notion may be "corrected" in GThomas 13:5: I am not your teacher. For you have drunk, you have become intoxicated at the bubbling spring that I have measured out.
In Prophetic literature:
Isaiah 58:11 The LORD will guide you continually, and satisfy your needs in parched places, and make your bones strong; and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters never fail.
In Wisdom literature:
Proverbs 18:4 The words of the mouth are deep waters; the fountain of wisdom is a gushing stream.
Cf. Job 32:18f for the belly (gastèr) as source of words.
About the womb:
Song of songs 4:12ff: A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a garden locked, a fountain sealed. Your channel is an orchard of pomegranates with all choicest fruits, henna with nard, nard and saffron, calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense, myrrh and aloes, with all chief spices-- a garden fountain, a well of living water, and flowing streams from Lebanon.
About the rock/Christ analogy:
1 Corinthians 10:4: For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
(Similar analogy with Wisdom in Philo about "oil from the rock", Deuteronomy 32:13, in Quod deterius 115ff.)
About the rock/womb analogy
Isaiah 51:1f: Look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were dug.
Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you.Cf. also Job 1:21 for the identification of the mother's womb (birth) and earth (death).
About Jerusalem as navel of the world:
Psalm 87:5ff And of Zion it shall be said,
"This one and that one were born in it";
for the Most High himself will establish it.
The LORD records, as he registers the peoples,
"This one was born there."
Singers and dancers alike say,
"All my springs are in you."Cf. 46:5, and the mention of Gihôn, the sacred well of Jerusalem, among the rivers of Eden in Genesis 2...
Israel is the "navel of the earth" in Ezekiel 38:12; a similar expression is applied to Jerusalem in 5:5. This may be related to the river from the temple in chapter 47 (and Zechariah 14).
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BluesBrother
this may seem simplistic to the learned ones but I do believe that the context gives us an understanding.
Jesus was in Jerusalem's Temple at the time of the Festival of Booths . The Preist would enter the courtyard bearing water from the Pool of Siloam. Then with great ceremony he would pour it out at the base of the alter.
In this moment of High drama , a voice from the crowd ,Jesus', cries out "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He that puts faith in me,just as the scripture has said"Out of his inmost part streams of water will flow",
Vs 39 explains "He said this concerning the spirit which those who put faith in him were about to receive, for as yet there was no spirit "
Is this not just a case of Jesus using an occasion to make a point, and wind up the Preists, drawing attention to his ministry?, He was saying that Holy Spirit would flow one day from his followers