What day should the memorial be?

by shotgun 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    The gospel writers Matt, Mark and Luke say it was on the passover while John said it was the day before passover.

    Read the account in John carefully and see for yourself. See his remarks on the morning after Jesus arrest in John 18:28

    28 Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.

    Apparently the passover had not occurred yet as they wanted to be able to share in it so they needed to be kept ceremonialy clean.

    And also John 19:13

    13 When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14 It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
    "Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.

    The day of his crucifiction was actually preparation day, which means the passover would begin that evening and had not occurred yet.

    As a sidenote on another thread someone mentioned if Jesus returned in 1914 to sit on the throne does that mean he is already 90 years into his thousand years reign? Cus I'm not feeling any closer to perfection yet.

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    Come on....Gumby ...anybody.

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    Come on...I know you intellectuals have probably noted this before and can tell me if you ever heard it discussed by either dubs or forum members.

    How would a dub respond to theses scriptures?

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    No day ?

    how come ?

    When the angel of death passed over jws, did they remain "in their house" with the door shut ? ( shut the door when you pray )

    Was contrition ( not attrition ) fundamental to their strength - "the blood of the lamb on their pillars ?

    So what's to celebrate?

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Shogun,

    Yes, this is strange ... and I never noticed this, nor discussed it with any JW, or any Christians before or after my life as a JW. WOW! What can I say ... it is clear that Jesus was already caught, and in Roman hands prior to passover. Yet, he and the Apostles did celebrate the night before.

    I recall that the Jewish day ends at sundown, but that the new day also begins at sundown. So, celebrating the Passover the night before would still be on the same day in the Jewish calander. I suppose it is conceivable that Jews could celebrate the night before as do Jews in my family ... or that some, maybe most, wait until the next evening, just before sundown.

    Or maybe this account in John could refer to other features of Passover, beside the eating and drinking of the unleavened bread and wine. The preparation day could simply refer to the first day of Passover ... and the account does refer to Passover week, suggesting there is more than the meal eating.

    My Jewish family celebrate Sabbath on Friday evening, after sundown, when they have special Sabbath bread and kosher wine, burn incense, sing special prayer in Yiddish or Hebrew, etc. This is what makes me wonder about these accounts you mention.

    But clearly, there is a discrepancy because John's details are different. And honestly, I never noticed this before. - Jim W.

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    Jim you mean all this time I have been going to a celebration where we pass bread and wine which we never partake of and the biggest concern is not dropping the bread or spilling the wine, and here I could have been doing this

    My Jewish family celebrate Sabbath on Friday evening, after sundown, when they have special Sabbath bread and kosher wine, burn incense, sing special prayer in Yiddish or Hebrew, etc.

    How's your Yiddish anyway?

  • Stacy Smith
    Stacy Smith

    As my friend at works says all the time

    I'd schedule that for the day after never

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Yep, this is one of the things that seperate John from the synoptic gospels. The Orthodox church says the Last Supper was the day before passover...and therefore use leaven instead of unleaven bread.

    Most other main stream christians say it was the first night of Passover (a Passover Seder was eaten two nights in a row in some locals...)

    Why the difference? Well, if all the gospels agreed we would have needed only one.

  • jwsons
    jwsons

    It is the day before Sabbaoth (Saturday) but it does not mean it should not be 14 Nissan. (Luke 23:54-56;Jphn 19:31,42 and etc...). However, 14 Nissan is the night of the same day (when Jesus celebrate Last Super, same day with the day Jesus died on the stake-or cross-if you want and the Jewish celabarte Pass Over). The Jewish day start at 6PM to 6PM. So Jesus died on Nissan 14 after he celebrated Last Supper with his apostles (should be after 6PM) then he is captured at night time of Nissan 14 (apostles so sleepy). Then the morning come (still in Nissan 14), then noon time of Nissan 14 (sixthh hour Jewish time). Jesus died around 3PM (9th hour) of Nissan 14 , in another word: "3 hours before the Sabaoth day" ) for the Sabaoth day will be 6PM coming soon after.

    For the modern day, it is the full moon day after March 21st., (usually March 21 is equinox).

    jwsons

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Yep, this is one of the things that seperate John from the synoptic gospels. The Orthodox church says the Last Supper was the day before passover...and therefore use leaven instead of unleaven bread.

    WRONG! This is a perfect example where laziness and negligence and lack of expertise in the Christian scholarly community shows up and gives the Bible a bad reputation for being contradictory! John is NOT contradicting the other gospels in the time of Passover. Here are the basics:

    1) First get the passover celebration correct. PASSOVER is eaten after 6 pm on the FIRST DAY OF UNFERMENTED CAKES which is a sabbath day. Check Exodus 12 and you'll see that the Passover week is seven days with two sabbath days, the first and the seventh. Passover is the first part of that first day of unfermented cakes. Thus the SEVEN DAYS begin not on Nisan 15th but on Nisan 14th in the evening.

    2) Wake up and get it right! The Jews as well as the Egyptians when the Jews first left Egypt used Egyptian concept of the DATE though they established a new "day" for themselves beginning from nightfall to nightfall, except for the sabbath day that began at sunset. That means that the DATE, NISAN 14TH did not change until Midnight to the 15th. THAT's why the celebration at Noon of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes is celebrated on the 15th, but Passover is celebrated on the 14th. Same with Atonement. The main day-time celebration was on the 10th but it official began on the 9th at sundown. So you must understand that the Jews DAY reflected two calendar DATES. From 6 to Midnight was one date and from Midnight to nightfall was another date. Thus PASSOVER is celebrated on the first sabbath day of passover after sundown on NISAN 14TH and ENDS AT MIDNIGHT. The Jews left AFTER MIDNIGHT on the 15th. Sorry NON-NEGOTIABLE folks so don't even think about it, this is researched. It doesn't matter what superficial concepts later came into practice, this was the ORIGINAL application.

    3) JOHN is specific as to when Jesus' trial was and it is not understood how the subtle use of "de" (English translated as "but" or "not" or "yet") is used in relation to times of the day, or watches of the day. When "de" is used with a reference to a segment of the day, it means "just before". If it's missing it means that part of the day is in progress. The term often translated as "immediately" in Greek means more appropriately "immediately after". Thus when a reference is made to Jesus being resurrected "but early" it meant just before the "early" watch of 3am to 6am. When Mary Magdalene showed up at "early" it meant DURING the early watch, while still at night AFTER 3am. Now: if you simply compare the reference at John 19:14 with other references to "preparation" you'll note that "but" is used here but not elsewhere. Thus when Jesus was said to be put into the grave during "preparation" there is no "but" in front of that reference since this was during preparation just before the sabbath. However, at John 19:14 the reference to "but preparation for passover" means "just before preparation for passover". "Preparation for Passover would begin later that night at nightfall. The Noon-time trial was thus the afternoon "before preparation". It is called "preparation for passovelr" because preparation is always a reference to the day before a SABBATH. There are two SABBATH DAYS connected with PASSOVER and thus two days of "preparation for passover", being a reference to the sabbaths of Passovers. Therefore, John 19:14 is actualy saying this was the DAY BEFORE PREPARATION FOR PASSOVER. The choice here is either Nisan 13th for Jesus' trial at Noon, which we know is not correct since this happened after Passover...OR, the second "preparation for Passover" which is the day before the second sabbath day of Passover on Nisan 21st! Preparation would have been Nisan 20th. So the Noon BEFORE PREPARATION ('but preparation") would be Noon on the 19th.

    THEREFORE, there is NO CONTRADICTION in scripture between the synoptic gospels and John. The synoptic gospels show Jesus eating Passover and being arrested afterwards. John, though specifically gives us the precise time of his trial, which is Wednesday, Nisan 19th at Noon.

    4) IMPALEMENT AT THE THIRD HOUR, 9 AM OR PM? Jesus per Matthew 15:25 was impaled at the "third hough" which is 9 o'clock, either am or pm. This is obviously PM since Jesus' trial was at Noon. Thus Jesus was taken out to Calvary after his trial and being teased by the soldiers that afternoon for a night-time impalement at 9 PM. He was on the torture state with the other impalees all that night up until the next morning and up until Noon when it got dark. NOW HERE IS WHERE LOGIC COMES IN. You have the Bible telling us that it gets dark from Noon to 3 pm just before Jesus dies, yet John says he was on TRIAL at noon. ???? Something is wrong. Plus he is IMPALED at 9 o'clock. That's either 3 hours before the Noon trial, which is impossible, or 9 hours after the trial. But there is a total conflict to Have Jesus still on trial at noon in one gospel and already impaled in another. At this point it should be figured out that MORE THAN ONE DAY MUST BE INVOLVED, and it is. Jesus did not die on Nisan 14th but on Nisan 20th.

    5) "THREE DAYS, THREE NIGHTS", DIES ONE DAY BEFORE A "SABBATH" and RISES one day AFTER A SABBATH. No way no how can Jesus die on a Friday and rise on a Saturday night and be in the grave for "three nights". Further he must die one day before a "high sabbath" and rise one day after "two sabbaths". This doesn't work on the weekend of Nisan 14th, which was a Friday, but it works perfectly the following weekend where you had two sabbaths in a row. The "high sabbath" of passover on Nisan 21st, a Friday followed by the regular sabbath. Therefore, if Jesus dies in the at 3:00 p.m. on the that Thursday, Nisan 20th, then he is in the grave for three nights...Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night, the night he rose. PERIOD.

    Thus John's account is not in conflict with the other gospels since his reference to "preparation for passover" and the trial just before that day ("but preparation") is a reference to the preparation for passover sabbath of Nisan 21st, not Nisan 15th.

    Thus when all is understood, Jesus sends out his disciples on the DAY THE LAMBS ARE SACRIFICED which is Nisan 14th at 3:00 p.m. He sent two of them out that morning, one of which had to take the lamb to the temple to get killed and then brought back and prepared for the meal. After 6 pm it BECAME THE SABBATH of the first day of Unfermented cakes. It was still Nisan 14th up until Midnight. The meal ends at Midnight, symbolizing when the angel of death appears. "Do not save anything until MORNING". Morning began a new DATE, Nisan 15th at Midnight. Thus Jesus was arrested on Nisan 15th, a Saturday and a sabbath day. No way could he be killed on this day since they don't have impalements on the sabbath, and no way could he die that day and only be in the grave one night since he rises on a Saturday night!!!

    Thus all is shifted to the following weekend. Jesus is tried before preparation at Noon on Wednesday, Nisan 19th. He is impaled at 9 p.m. that night and the following day at Noon it gets dark until 3pm when he dies. He is then in the tomb "three days and three nights" as prophesied. He dies one day before a sabbath, a high sabbath, which is the day before the sabbath of Nisan 21st, then he rises one day after a sabbath, which is the regular sabbath ending that Saturday at nightfall. After being raised on the 23rd of Nisan, therefore and not the 16th, he is around for 40 days and ascends to heaven not ten days before Pentecost, but onl 3 days before Pentecost.

    I know it's confusing, but if you are confused realize that the DATES and times now being celebrated by the Jews is exactly how it has been since the first Passover. The DATE changes at Midnight and passover and sabbaths are celebrated the day before after sundown, so the days are split between two DATES. Thus the first day of unfermented cakes, the NIGHT the Jews left Egypt on Nisan 15th is the SAME NIGHT as PASSOVER only Passover is before Midnght on the 14th and the Jews left after Midnight on the 15th. Once you understand that PASSOVER IS EATEN ON THE FIRST DAY OF UNFERMENTED CAKES, Nisan 14/15, then you know Jesus did not die on Nisan 14th but the following weekend and John reflects that when you understand specific time syntax in koine Greek that Greek scholars have missed.

    NO CONFLICT IN THE BIBLE HERE. JUST INCOMPETENCE AND NEGLIENCE, AS USUAL in the superfluous scholarship of those examining the Bible incorrectly.

    Again, this is NON-NEGOTIABLE AND FINAL. Go to the internet and find as many wrong quotes as you need to to contradict this and it won't matter. The aspect of the ritual of passover is misunderstood at the deepest levels.

    If you need a wake-up call, BEGIN with explaining how Jesus' trial at Noon corresponds with it getting dark at Noon after he is already impaled. And sorry, "contradiction between the gospels" is not an option. Jesus trial is at NOON. HIs imapalement is a 9 and it gets dark at Noon. If you can make that work around Nisan 14th, then fine. If you can't, then it's time to face reality and realize Jesus celelbrated Passover on Nisan 14th, got arrested that same night on Nisan 15th, and died the following Thursday on Nisan 20th after which he, indeed, was in the tomb for "three nights".

    The problem is not with the Bible...just not-so-bright and biased Biblical students and scholars, including JWs who also have it wrong.

    Cheerio.

    JC

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