Jeremiah 29:10

by TheOldHippie 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

JCanon

It matters not as far as 607BCE is concerned whether it is AT Babylon or FOR Babylon. That is an issue for those trying to promote the "servitude" issue in relation to "the nations".
The main reason it is not an issue, however, as far as 607BCE is concerned, is because of Josephus who in Ant. 11.1.1 not only assigns the fulfillment of Jeremiah's 70 years to those last deported, but specifically defines it as "servitude". Thus per Josephus, the 70 years of Jeremiah are fulfilled from the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar (last deportation, Jer. 52:30) until the 1st of Cyrus. This contradicts the NB chronology timeline via various sources, those sources challenged by JWs and others though.
Of note, even Sir Isaac Newton, who wrote about this chronology noted that "Darius the Mede" was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar through a state marriage between the Medes and the Babylonians. Thus when the 70-year reference is to serving "Nebuchadnezzar and his sons" it includes Darius the Mede. Isaac Newton assigns a 2-year rule to Darius the Mede immediately after the fall of Jerusalem, after which Cyrus takes over which I found interesting. The Bible assigns a 6-year rule of Darius the Mede before Cyrus begins to reign. But the Jews are not released until the 1st of Cyrus. The Isaac Newton interpretation would show Babylon falling in 539BCE and the Darius the Mede ruling for 2 years with Cyrus coming to the throne in 537BCE, releasing the Jews at that time in his 1st year.
Here's Josephus' quote on the 70 years of "servitude" FOR Babylon, in Ant. 11.1.1 His direct contradiction here of the NB chronology makes the "in" or "for" issue a moot one.
IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon. God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity. And these things God did afford them; for he stirred up the mind of Cyrus and made him write this throughout all Asia "Thus saith Cyrus the king: Since God Almighty hath appointed me to be king of the habitable earth, I believe that he is that God which the nation of the Israelites worship; for indeed he foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build him a house at Jerusalem in the country of Judea."
Thus according to Josephus, the Jews served these 70 years "FOR" Babylon "AT" Babylon....so it doesn't matter how it's translated.
??
JC
scholar

old hippie
The absurd Jonsson hypothesis is based on Jeremiah 29:10 and the translation of a single Hebrew preposition which has a wide semantic range. How foolish to base one's work on the idea of seventy years servitude at the expense of the plainly stated fact that the land was desolate for seventy years. Jonsson's view stands or falls entirely on his exgesis of the nature and length of the seventy years
scholar
Cameron

It's been a long time sime I looked at this stuff but it seems to me that I read somewhere that Josephus eventually changed his earlier reference of 70 years down to 50 years. But again, since that was many years ago that I was looking into this, I may not now remember it correctly.
Don
joenobody

I knew it was only a matter of time before "scholar" showed up on this thread. For any newbies, please search the board for scholar's numerous defeats. You Know he's out to lunch.
Faraon

The absurd Jonsson hypothesis is based on Jeremiah 29:10 and the translation of a single Hebrew preposition which has a wide semantic range. How foolish to base one's work on the idea of seventy years servitude at the expense of the plainly stated fact that the land was desolate for seventy years. Jonsson's view stands or falls entirely on his exgesis of the nature and length of the seventy years

As corrected by Faraon if this post were to follow the truth in advertising laws:
~~The~~ [My] absurd opinion [is that] Jonsson?s hypothesis is based on Jeremiah 29:10 and the translation of a single Hebrew preposition which has a wide semantic range [to which only the WT has the right to interpret according to its preconceived ideas]. How foolish [is it] to base one's work on the idea of seventy years? ~~servitude~~ [slavery, when more than a hundred years? of profit can be obtained] at the expense of the plainly [credulous who believe any] stated ~~fact~~ [cr*p] that [we wish to dish him or her out.] the land was desolate for seventy years [but the minds of our cult members have been desolate for even longer.] Jonsson's view stands or falls entirely on his ~~exgesis~~ exegesis of the nature and length of the seventy years. [As an obedient mindless apologist for the WT Publishing Corporation, I have been trying to prove him wrong but have been unable to do so.]
AlanF

Context alone proves that Jeremiah 29:10 must be translated "for Babylon", not "at Babylon", if you strictly apply Watchtower reasoning. Thus, this reasoning is self-contradictory and therefore false, and there is no reason to prefer the Society's rendering.
According to the Society, the 70 years of desolation of Judah is an exact figure, precise to within a month. However, if Jer. 29:10 says that the Jews would be "at Babylon" for 70 years, then the desolation of Judah must have been 70 years plus the round trip time for a large group of travelers, which would have been a minimum of 8 months. Therefore the desolation of Judah must have been closer to 71 years, and certainly was not the exact figure that the Society claims. Alternatively, if one claims that the desolation was indeed exactly 70 years, then the expression "at Babylon" for 70 years is wrong. Then either the prophecy was wrong, or the expression cannot literally mean that the Jews were "at Babylon" for 70 years.
The most reasonable alternative, and one which doesn't contradict the Bible or known facts, is that the expression means "for Babylon", i.e., the 70 years were a time "for Babylon", when Babylon would be supreme over the nations in its vicinity. This is perfectly consistent with Jer. 25:11, 12, which specifically states that the Jews and surrounding nations would be subject -- not captive -- to Babylon for 70 years. It doesn't require the ridiculous and unsupported twisting of the Hebrew language that Rolf Furuli needs to justify the Society's claims -- claims that the Society itself has judiciously avoided making and which they would probably disagree with Furuli on.
AlanF
scholar

Faraon
The context of Jeremiah is not helpful in determining the nature of the seventy years in Jeremiah 29:10 but rather one must consider the other references by Jeremiah, Daniel and the Chronicler. The Society holds the view that the seventy years refers to a specific period of time right down to the very month at least so that that period could truly be fulfilled.
Rolf Furuli who is a Hebraic and linguistic scholar is well qualified to comment on how that verse should be translated wheras Jonsson who is not a competent and qualified scholar must rely on the opinions of other scholars in order to support his rather tenuous position. For me, it is rather foolish for any individual to base his hypothesis on the translation of a single preposition which has a wide semantic range. This is Jonsson's major mistake. Additionally, scholars have many opinions as to chronology of the seventy years yet Jonsson and his supporters have taken a dogmatic view that others would not assume.
scholar
Narkissos

A few remarks:
On syntax: the preposition le would only imply location with a verb (or context) of movement (meaning "to", not "in" or "at"). As the subject is the whole 70-years period, it is impossible.
I'm surprised "scholar" doesn't bring other Biblical references into the picture: such as Isaiah 23:15ff which show the "seventy years" to be a topos of doom prophecy, or Zechariah 1:12; 7:5 clearly showing that 70 years after the destruction the exilees were already back (for years). Even Daniel 9 is clearly an attempt at reinterpretation of the 70 years (v. 2), which was possible because the "prophecy" was not seen as totally fulfilled.
Last but not least, historically there was no such thing as "desolation". The "desolation" motive is above all a literary creation of the returnees in Jerusalem, whose interest was to picture the vast majority of Israelites (including Judeans) who remained in Palestine (see the probably original figures of the exile in Jeremiah 52:30) as "people of the land", i.e. pagans. This is the real beginning of the (slanderous) Judean version of the "Samaritan" history, retrojected into Assyrian time by 2 Kings 17.
Faraon

Scholar,
Note that in this post I will refrain from correcting your scholarly spelling and grammar.
The context of Jeremiah is not helpful in determining the nature of the seventy years in Jeremiah 29:10 but rather one must consider the other references by Jeremiah, Daniel and the Chronicler. The Society holds the view that the seventy years refers to a specific period of time right down to the very month at least so that that period could truly be fulfilled.
Rolf Furuli who is a Hebraic and linguistic scholar is well qualified to comment on how that verse should be translated wheras Jonsson who is not a competent and qualified scholar must rely on the opinions of other scholars in order to support his rather tenuous position. For me, it is rather foolish for any individual to base his hypothesis on the translation of a single preposition which has a wide semantic range. This is Jonsson's major mistake. Additionally, scholars have many opinions as to chronology of the seventy years yet Jonsson and his supporters have taken a dogmatic view that others would not assume.

It is curious how Furuli and other JWs conveniently forget the preceding verse. Jeremiah 29:9 states:
?For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.? How many times has the WT stated plainly or insinuated ?the end of this system of things?? Be honest with yourself and others.
That said, I must tell you that I intensely distrust apologists and view them as ?hired guns? for sale that have vested interests in mind. I prefer to do my own research. I have found out that the bible is not to be trusted, even with numbers, because it is full of contradictions. You can see some of them at http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_book.html . I will grant you that the site has mistakes and is not ?scholarly?. Let?s see how ?scholarly? you are:
The context of Jeremiah is not helpful in determining the nature of the seventy years in Jeremiah 29:10 but rather one must consider the other references by Jeremiah, Daniel and the Chronicler.

While its true that other sources must be considered in research, to dismiss something just because it agree with your preconceived ideas is neither wise nor scholarly. Change your statement to: The context of Jeremiah, Daniel and the Chronicler are not helpful in determining the nature of the seventy years in Jeremiah 29:10 but rather one must consider the other references by Jeremiah and you will see my point.
The Society holds the view that the seventy years refers to a specific period of time right down to the very month at least so that that period could truly be fulfilled.

This shows a bias that is supported by you. Not open minded and therefore not scholarly.
Rolf Furuli who is a Hebraic and linguistic scholar is well qualified to comment on how that verse should be translated

I would say that he is less qualified than the Hebraic and linguistic scholars who translated the Jewish bible into English and you can find at
http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Jeremiah29.htm#10
For thus saith HaShem: After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will remember you, and perform My good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
wheras Jonsson who is not a competent and qualified scholar must rely on the opinions of other scholars in order to support his rather tenuous position
Is it then your scholarly opinion that only scholars can have a position? Is it wrong to rely on the opinions of other scholars? Note that by saying ?other scholars? you are, by your own words, qualifying Jonsson as a scholar.
For me, it is rather foolish for any individual to base his hypothesis on the translation of a single preposition which has a wide semantic range. This is Jonsson's major mistake
Good for you. At least you are admitting that this is only your opinion.
Additionally, scholars have many opinions as to chronology of the seventy years yet Jonsson and his supporters have taken a dogmatic view that others would not assume.
Talking about the kettle being black... Remove the beam from your eye and see yourself as others in the board see you. The likes of you and Furuli make at textbook definition of dogmatic. I was surprised when I looked in an illustrated dictionary and did not see both of your pictures next to the word ?dogmatic?.
Most scholars do not even pay attention to the convoluted, moot, and failed prophecies of a Brooking Publishing Corporation based on seventy years who magically consist of only 360 days instead of the normal 365 ¼, or on some measurements in a pyramid that was built thousands of years before JC, but somehow was to be used to predict the end of the world.
For your information, I include my research on the verse:
Jeremiah 29:10 :: New International Version (NIV)
10 This is what the LORD says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 "For thus says the LORD, 'When (1) seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My (2) good word to you, to bring you back to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: The Message (MSG)
10This is GOD's Word on the subject: "As soon as Babylon's seventy years are up and not a day before, I'll show up and take care of you as I promised and bring you back home.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: Amplified Bible (AMP)
10For thus says the Lord, When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you and keep My good promise to you, causing you to return to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: New Living Translation (NLT)
10"The truth is that you will be in Babylon for seventy years. But then I will come and do for you all the good things I have promised, and I will bring you home again.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: New Life Version (NLV)
10" For the Lord says, ' When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you and keep My promise to you. I will bring you back to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: English Standard Version (ESV)
10"For thus says the LORD: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: Contemporary English Version (CEV)
10 After Babylonia has been the strongest nation for seventy years, I will be kind and bring you back to Jerusalem, just as I have promised.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: New King James Version (NKJV)
10For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
10 "For thus saith the LORD: That after seventy years are accomplished at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, causing you to return to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: King James Version (KJV)
10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: American Standard Version (ASV)
10 For thus saith Jehovah, After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 `For thus said Jehovah, Surely at the fullness of Babylon -- seventy years -- I inspect you, and have established towards you My good word, to bring you back unto this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: Darby Translation (DARBY)
10 For thus saith Jehovah: When seventy years shall be accomplished for Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in bringing you back to this place.
Jeremiah 29:10 :: New International Version - UK (NIV-UK)
10 This is what the LORD says: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place.
The JPS Jewish bible traduces it:
http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Jeremiah29.htm#10
For thus saith HaShem: After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will remember you, and perform My good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Don't forget to check the last one. It is from a Jewish site.
Narkissos

Faraon, just a brief comment on your review of English translations: notice that only the KJV tradition uses "at Babylon" (YLT uses a very different formula which does not relate the preposition "at" to the place name). Incidentally, this obviously mistaken translation (from the standpoint of Hebrew syntax) is the one C.T. Russell mainly referred to. The version I have quoted earlier in this thread is the Revised Standard Version.

Jeremiah 29:10

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