Bold lies in this weeks bookstudy material.........

Pistoff

OK, help me out: I think this is an outright fabrication, but I know that the WT will have some lame quote to back it up.

In the material for the bookstudy this week, they say this:

"In 1923, Jehovah's servants discerned that "the sheep" of Jesus' parable found at Matt 25:31-36 and the "other sheep" to which he referred as recorded at John 10:16 are people who would have the opportunity to live forever on earth."

What? No way, not unless I have been lied to all my life. Wait, what am I saying, of course I have been lied to.

Since when have they tried to sneak this BS by us? It was not until 1935 according to the Divine Purpose book that they "began to emphasize" the earthly hope. Until that time, they knew about the 144,000 being a "real" symbolic number, but felt that any "overflow" would be a secondary congregation in heaven.

Blondie: is this an outright lie, or can they come up with some phony quote to back it up??

Euphemism

I'm sure Blondie and others will have a more precise answer for you, but in the meantime, here's what I've got.

1935 was the date when the Great Crowd of Revelation 7 was identified as an earthly class. The important thing about this is that it meant that everyone--not just those with the heavenly hope--had to get baptized, participate in the preaching work, etc.

So it's true that in 1923, they did recognize an earthly hope. But it was for people who weren't active members of the organization. In other words, it did not in any way resemble the current "other sheep" class.

onacruse

Euph is correct. The title of the article is "The Parable of the Sheep and Goats" (Watch Tower, October 15, 1923). The "other sheep" were characterized as an even less 'motivated' group than the "great crowd" (who were themselves thought to fall short of attaining the 'status' of the 'true overcomers' class...geez, so many classes ). The files I have aren't suitable for copy and paste, so I'll peruse the article and manually post a couple of pertinent paragraphs (unless blondie or somebody else beats me to it! LOL)

Craig

minimus

This just shows that Jehovah's servants are always "discerning".

Pistoff

The tone of this paragraph is that they knew all about the earthly hope in 1923, and that feels dishonest. To me it is just one more instance of revisionism; it is so long ago they take liberties, and leave the impression by clever wording that they knew more earlier than was really the case.

There is no mention of the importance of this as they year 1935 came, as the number of 144,000 was becoming uncomfortably unrealistic; the need grew to have a viable other group that had a legitimate hope and place, in their thinking.

blondie

"Ever and anon someone advances the conclusion that the 'great multitude' will not be a spiritual class. The prophecy of Ezekiel shows that such conclusion is erroneous. The fact that their position is seven steps higher than the outside shows that they must be made spirit creatures . . . They must be spirit creatures in order to be in the outer court of the divine structure, described by Ezekiel" (J. F. Rutherford, Vindication, III, p. 204, 1932).

It wasn't until the numbers of the anointed approached 59,000 it was uncomfortable maintaining 144,000 as literal. Something had to give. Russell expected the end to come in 1914 maybe 1915 at the latest. This was not an issue then.

Blondie

onacruse

The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ?s Presence

October 15, 1923

THE PARABLE OF THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS

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¶ 24 To whom, then, do the symbols of sheep and goats apply? We answer: Sheep represent all the peoples of the nations, not spirit-begotten but disposed toward righteousness, who mentally acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Lord and who are looking for and hoping for a better time under his reign. Goats represent all that class who claim to be Christians, but who do not acknowledge Christ as the great Redeemer and King of mankind, but claim that the present evil order of things on this earth constitutes Christ?s kingdom.

w10/15/23 310

¶ 33 There is in nominal Christendom another class of a docile temperment. They believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the great Redeemer of mankind. They strive to do right and they want to do good. They do not claim to be consecrated to the Lord, but they have great respect and love for the Lord and his people. They manifest a sheep-like disposition. They are looking for the Lord?s kingdom and the restoration blerssings that will come to them. Doubtless there are many in the world that could not be properly put into either one of these two classes, but the parable deals with classes that pretend to be Christian. We believe there are millions in the nominal church who are holding on because of their respect for the Lord; and they regard the nominal church as in some sense being used of the Lord. Great numbers of them do not claim to be consecrated unto the Lord, and have no heavenly hopes or aspirations. Here we believe is to be found the class designated by our Lord as the sheep. (John 10:16) Our conclusion therefore is that both the sheep and the goats of the parable claim to be Christians, forming Christendom, and both are claiming to do the works in the name of the Lord. (Matthew 7:21-23)

w10/15/23 314

¶ 59 During the last few years the Lord has caused a wide witness of the truth to be given. He has made known the fact of his presence, advertising his kingdom. Throughout the world in in many languages the message of the kingdom has been proclaimed. There is a large number of people in the denominational churches and outside of them who do not claim consecration, but who now see enough of the truth to convince them that the kingdom is at hand and who rejoice in the fact that the King is here. It is not at all unreasonable to conclude that there are millions now hearing about God?s plan of salvatiobn who will pass through the time of trouble and never die, being amongst the first that will have an opportunity for a trial for life everlasting. The Prophet says: ?It shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein [the apostate ?clergy,? who deliberately misrepresent the Lord and his truth, and ?the principal of the flock? who oppress the brethren of the Lord and by coercion rule in the church] shall be cut off, and die; but the third [the honest-hearted, order-loving people who believe that Jesus is the King] shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and they shall call on my name, and I will hear them; I will say, It is my people, and they shall say, The Lord is my God.? (Zechariah 13:8, 9)

¶ 60 Concerning the goat class the Lord says: ?These shall go away into everlasting punishment.? Their unrighteous system without doubt shall perish forever. Those making up that system who have proven themselves unworthy of a trial for life will doubtless likewise suffer the punishment to be inflicted upon the Devil and his angels. Concerning the sheep class he says: ?But the righteous into life eternal.? The word ?righteous? here clearly implies that they must first prove their righteousness. It will be observed that the parable speaks of the sheep and invites them to inherit the kingdom. By this we understand that these will be the ones who will pass through the trouble and who will be the first ones to have a trial for restoration; and proving themselves righteous they shall be granted life eternal. Thus we see that the Lord will count some as unworthy of a trial for life; while others will have the opportunity; and those proving themselves righteous will be granted the eternal reward.

Pistoff

Blondie, you rock as usual!

Ever and anon someone advances the conclusion that the 'great multitude' will not be a spiritual class. The prophecy of Ezekiel shows that such conclusion is erroneous. The fact that their position is seven steps higher than the outside shows that they must be made spirit creatures . . . They must be spirit creatures in order to be in the outer court of the divine structure, described by Ezekiel" (J. F. Rutherford, Vindication, III, p. 204, 1932).

So; in 1923 it was honest ones in Christendom who would have an earthly hope; by 1932 the judge maintains it was NOT earthly but spiritual.

I wonder why that little flip flop was not in tonight's lesson?

Pistoff

btw:

Was " the eternal reward" discussed here an opportunity for life eternal on earth, or a shot at the big reward of life in heaven?

Either way, the spin in tonight's lesson makes it sound like they knew in 1923 that there was an earthly class from among the brotherhood.

But, as I look back at the slippery wording, I see that is not the case; they just say, an earthly group.

GRRRRR.

bebu

Forgive my ignorance on the details and their implications...

OK, so in 1923, they said that millions of "orthodox" Christians were revealed to be the sheep, granted to live on earth. Then in 1935's book, they stated otherwise, that only non-annointed JWs who were baptised and out preaching had this hope. Now they are claiming that their 1935 view actually occurred in 1923.

Am I getting this right? Have mercy on me, I was never a dub.

bebu

PS Some of the most damning evidence against the WT is in their 1920-25 literature, I believe.

Bold lies in this weeks bookstudy material.........

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