Problems with puctuation
And with ortography too, apparently...
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
What do the soul do after death? Problems with puctuation.
by krzysiek 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Euphemism
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AnnOMaly
What is the difference between the idiom (which admittedly doesn't translate very well into English) "I tell you today..." and what people say nowadays, "I'm telling you now..."?
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Chappi
AnnOMaly,
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Simply we are dealing with a common way of expression.
God Bless
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AnnOMaly
Thanks Chappie
That was my point - obviously we are speaking NOW, but it doesn't stop us using the expression. Jesus was obviously talking 'today,' but he used the expression "truly I tell you today" anyway.
No big deal (unless one believes in the immortal soul).
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peacefulpete
Aside from the painfully obvious reference to the Jewish conception of afterlife (as Leolaia has kindly and thouroughly provided) and the idiomatic pecedent throughout the Gospels, we also have the theological complications presented by the JW or modern Catholic interpretation.
In the Jewish conception of paradise the dead awaited final judgment. Those that merited going there were not saints but were not on the other hand deserving of the tortures going on in other quarters of Hades. This would fit the story well. The much later Xtian concept of Paradise being a final destination in Heaven, begs the questian of why this man merited this incredible reward. Was the author intending to suggest that even a gross sinner that spoke kindly to Xtians would be rewarded thus? That would seem to me counter to the body of Xtian teachings of the time that required great struggling and endurance to get the prize.
The JW interpretation ("today" as part of the fomula and Paradise is future and earthly) likewise ignores all the social and religious context of these words. It supposes the criminal was familiar with some radical new concept of death and Paradise. It also has Jesus be resident of Paradise tho they otherwise teach he is not but rather the heavenly spirit ruler of it. This then requires we understand the statement metaphorically. That what he said to the man was misleading. This is typically needed when an interpretation is strained and inconsistant.
Most of the resistance to understanding the words at Luke 23 in the light of contemporary Jewish conceptions of Paradise is the result of having long interpreted the passage in either the modern Catholic or the JW way. Change is not easy for many.
Some say that this informed interpretation (using contemporary religious concepts of Hades) contradicts the story that he was in the Hades for three days (gleaned from pagan solar deity precedents). How so? There is no reason to see these as contradictory at all. In fact they flow quite naturally. Later the tradition that during those 3 days he also visited Tartarus (the land of the damned spirits) was added. Even this late adition to the story is consistent with the Jewish Xtian tradition that Jesus was active during those three days. -
LittleToe
Just as a quick, cut-to-the-chase comment, Pete, what's your understanding of the Jewish view of what happens AFTER final judgement?
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gumby
Well I'm not pete......but I'm way the hell smarter than he is
Hey LT.....
I'll give my take on it until pete wakes up from his 4 hour morning nap.
Simply by reading the OT, one can see the viewpoint of the Jews prior to Jesus time. They believed in a bodily ressurection as job stated, and others. They believed they would be DEAD until god rememberd them and brought them back to life. That's a bit brief.....but you wanted a cut through the chase answer.
Gumby
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Leolaia
LittleToe....
what's your understanding of the Jewish view of what happens AFTER final judgement?
That is discussed in detail in the following post of mine --
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/63386/973216/post.ashx#973216
Leolaia
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LittleToe
Ok, in Pete's absence, and "cutting to the chase":
What was the generally held view of where they would be resurrected to?
From what I read in Isa.66 (which strangely enough, and totally unrelated, I was studying just last night), the destination was the new earth or fire and worms.
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Leolaia
Yeah, fire and worms for the resurrected naughty ones, and some sort of bliss for the goody-goody ones. How the bliss was conceived differed according to the different traditions.