A New View of the Trinity

by Eugene Shubert 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    My thesis is that Christ is all the fullness of the Godhead that can be manifested to finite creatures. Prove me wrong.

    Eugene Shubert,

    No actually you said: The Godhead is a heavenly trio of three living persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    This is false and is really what you are trying to teach. That Christ demonstrates the fullness of God is something else entirely. You have not provided any evidence for you views to prove wrong. However what really is taught by such verses is this: Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. In human form the fullness of God become visible to us. But the scripture is talking about the power and authority vested in this Christ and not every attribute possessed by God. Therefore the verse goes on to explain: 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    Joseph

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Leolaia, I agree. You're wasting your breath tho. The separate christologies from jewish and Mystic Christianity were melded into an artificial harmony by the early Roman Church. Utilizing expressions and theology from both schools in an attempt to unite the sects under their leadership. This has resulted in 1800 years of debate about the nature of Jesus.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    To Eugene Shubert: IMO the OT (even in its Septuagint form) is not a sufficient basis to explain the development of the NT Christologies. At the very least a détour by Hellenistic judaism (especially Philo) is necessary, and the comparison with contemporary Graeco-Roman material (including the title "huios theou", "son of a god", given very often to the Roman emperors in the East of the Empire) would help too.

    As an sample, let me just quote Philo in his treaty "On the Confusion of Tongues", 146: "And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to the first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God's image, and he who sees -- Israel."

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    archangel01,

    But Peter said, ?Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.? Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. (Acts 5:3-5 NKJV)

    This verse is often used in support of the Trinity doctrine. They say that the Holy Spirit, to whom Ananias has ?played false,? is here unmistakably designated as being ?God,? as if it were another person of God. The apostle Peter did say that the Holy Spirit was lied to, but the words ?Holy Spirit? are used in connection with human beings and it is such men that are literally being identified as ?Holy Spirit.? Trinitarians do not tolerate any expression that human beings make up the ?Holy Spirit? but this is exactly what is being taught by Peter. The verses therefor teach that lying to such men is the same as lying to God. Does such wording prove that the ?Holy Spirit? is ?God Almighty?? Do the verses actually say and teach that, or did some Trinitarian reason it out? The answer to these questions can be found just a few verses further when the issue raised here is once again discussed with Sapphira.

    Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter answered her, ?Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?? Then Peter said to her, ?How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.? (Acts 5:7-9, NKJV)

    Now we know from scripture that Peter, when referring to the holy spirit, meant the ?Spirit of the Lord? and not the ?Spirit is the Lord,? as if Spirit is God in its own right and has no other application. There is a vast difference in meaning between being ?God? and being ?of the Lord,? or in using such words as a designation of authority given by Our Lord himself. The spirit of the Lord means truth and honesty, Godly devotion, all the things that Jesus stood for, not lies and deceit or the manipulation of the Faith for personal gain. Such thoughts apply to Biblical interpretation as well. If we consider verses 3 and 4 again we will see that when Ananias lied at the feet of the apostles, who were specifically appointed by holy spirit (Acts 2:4) to serve as a foundation for the Faith in a God-given capacity transmitted to them by God in our Lord?s name (Luke 22:29,30; John 14:26), then such an act was the equivalent of lying to God himself. Ananias was not simply lying to men as Peter stated, but he was lying to God. If the Faith could be so corrupted at such an early stage of its development, and the men specifically responsible for it so easily deceived, then what was there to prevent it from being completely taken over by Satan? In verse 3, the Holy Spirit is directly equated to such men as Peter, the apostles, and the disciples present (verse 4), with one exception. Lying to such men in the Faith, or Holy Spirit as the apostles are called in this Scripture, is not considered a minor transgression easily overlooked. It is properly viewed as lying to God, evoking dire consequences and in this case death. Ananias and Sapphira could be judged as a result. The account of Ananias and Sapphira therefore was not written to identify for us the nature of God or some part of him. It does not identify another person in his make-up ignored in more appropriate verses of Scripture. What it does do is establish a precedent for the kind of judgment that awaits all those who have tampered with or corrupted the Faith.

    Joseph

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    Jesus himself refutes any notion of any sort of trinity when at John 17:3, he refers to another as "the only true God." No translation I have seen has him saying anything other than that.

    All the slick translating, smoke and mirrors and intellectualizing any wish to do can change Jesus' own words at John 17:3. If he is God, equal to God or any part of any godhead, he cannot say another is "the only true God." Since he did, he clearly shows his own thoughts on the matter.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Jesus himself refutes any notion of any sort of trinity when at John 17:3, he refers to another as "the only true God." No translation I have seen has him saying anything other than that.

    All the slick translating, smoke and mirrors and intellectualizing any wish to do can change Jesus' own words at John 17:3. If he is God, equal to God or any part of any godhead, he cannot say another is "the only true God." Since he did, he clearly shows his own thoughts on the matter.

    It seems to be intellecutalizing on the WTS' part that turns Jesus' affirmation of the trueness of God into a denial of his own divinity. Jude 4 refers to Jesus Christ as "our only Master and Lord" -- does that prove then that Jehovah is not our Master and Lord? Of course not.

    John understands that the Son and Father have a mystical unity amid distinction of each other, so that both the Father and Son could be described as theos (God) existing with each other in John 1:1. In 17:21, Jesus says that his Father is in him just as he is in the Father, and he prays for his followers to be united "so that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me" (v. 22-23). Even in the form as a "servant", the Son is still united with the Father. Jesus' statement in v. 22-23 is very significant because it is alluded to in 1 John 5:20, written by the same author or school and note what is says on who is "the true God":

    "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true [the Father, whom the Son had revealed], and we are in Him who is true [the Father], even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

    Yes, John here is calling Jesus the "true God"....he is also called "eternal life" in the same verse, and 1 John 1:2 confirms that Jesus is "eternal life" within this context: "We proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us." Then, within chapter 5, John repeats the same point: "God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 John 5:11). This whole passage is closely related to Jesus' words in John 17.

    Leolaia

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    If Jesus plainly states another is the only true God by praying to him and stating such, who do you believe? I choose to believe Jesus himself.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I think the point is that the Son and the Father are both "the only true God" (cf. John 1:1). Hence the Father being in the Son as the Son is in the Father. Hence Christians being in the Father if they are in the Son. The Son referring to the Father as "the only true God" does not logically deny his own deity, especially since John repeatedly makes it clear that Father and Son are both God though individuated from each other as Father and Son, yet also always united. That is the essence of John 1:1 -- both existing in a mutual relationship yet both being God. That isn't the Trinity doctrine per se, it was up to later theologians to work out precisely how this relationship can be analyzed. John doesn't use concepts such as "essence," "substance," and "person". Yet what he does say provides the conceptual core of the Trinity doctrine. The Trinity doctrine probably wouldn't have developed the way it did if it hadn't been for John's gospel. But to claim that John doesn't present Jesus as God because He speaks of his Father as "the only true God" is to miss the overall point of his gospel. --Leolaia

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    I think the point is that the Son and the Father are both "the only true God" (cf. John 1:1).

    If that were really the point, how can Jesus say another is the only true God? Only implies one of a kind. If he had said "we" maybe you could claim that point, but he didn't. If you have a son and a father both claiming to be God, then it can't be "you, the only true God," but rather, "we, the only true Gods." To claim such totally denies the concept of only one God.

    John 1:1 as interpreted in pro-trinitarian versions is very suspect since no language allows one to be with themselves as also stated in John 1:1. Hence, many versions interpret it not as God or a god, but as divine and godlike.

    A book I would suggest for you is The Doctrine of the Trinity, Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998 by Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    To accept that this verse which shifts from first to third person ("and the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ") was spoken by Jesus is your first mistake. Noone talks like that. Further noone is present to hear this private "prayer", and Jesus has no opportunity to tell anyone of it. So how'd the author of John quote him? Simple,this is a story and storytellers can put any words in the mouths of their charactors they want.

    This Hellenized Gospel is considered by some recent researchers to be the earliest of the 4 that evetually became cannonized rather than the latest as tradition has placed it. Possibly it was produced in some form about the time a protoMark or Q were being wrtten in the Jewish Christian camp. The Dualistic/cosmic nature of the Christ character is distinct from the others altho significant overseeding of an historical Jesus has been done. Given the layers of redaction to the Synoptics, it is difficult to uncover how much of the historizing of the Jesus figure was original to them as well. Perhaps the later inclusion of John to a cannon due to it's Gnostic themes exposed it to less trim and polish allowing it to retain it's unique character.

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