Is this how they control people?

by Loki 19 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Frontle

  Loki

  The statement of the opium thing is just a generalisation and it's also shit. Anything can be generalised in this fashion and it sounds cool and superior.

  Chocolate is a womans version of good sex

  Politicians are greedy liars

  Fat people dont care how they look

  and many others. It is so easy to generalise and make it sound like an educated statement, but it's just another opinion with its own biases. The world and humanity really isnt that simple.

  Your name "Loki" is a wolf god who was invented to explain away things that made little sense at the time. It wasnt opium, it was not meant to dull anyones senses or to ease pain, it was just rational people trying to explain things that they didnt understand.

  Frontle
• 

  BoozeRunner

  Frontle, you stated:

  "The statement of the opium thing is just a generalisation and it's also shit. Anything can be generalised in this fashion and it sounds cool and superior."

  First of all, Loki was asking a question about an oft repeated historical statement about the nature of religion.

  Secondly, there was no hint of an attempt to sound "superior" as you put it.

  As to your question Loki, thw WTS does indeed become a drug to many, as it forces its members to become dependent on it and the WTS community.
  For example, as a Witness becomes more and more involved, they are "mildly" and sometimes "not so mildly" encouraged to leave non-witness friends and family behind, so to speak.
  The burden of 5 meetings per week, and MAKING THOSE HOURS in field service accomplishes this objective very nicely.

  Also, the WTS rather nicely discouraged higher education for decades, unless of course it enabled one to pioneer or otherwise give ones life to the (B)ORG.

  Just like a drug, they cause alienation, and demand devotion!!!

  OPIUM???? YES!!!! Better GRADE???? NO!!! Just a sneakier distribution and addiction method!!!

  Boozy
• 

  thinkers wife

  Welcome to the board Loki and Boozy!! Hope to hear more from you!
  Frontle,
  you might want to try a less "frontal" approach and a little more subtly. People here are in various stages of healing from being in a very controlled environment. Each expresses themselves differently.
  I believe we need to express tolerance and be civil in our replies.
  This may work a little better than attacking.
  TW
• 

  larc

  Hi Frontle,

  Welcome to our forum. I think you are right that we can have the tendency to over generalize and steriotype people and institutions.
• 

  Francois

  I think there's a lot of truth in the idea that religion is opium for the people. It keeps them insensate, makes 'em docile, keeps 'em from paying proper attention to the competing religion where Marx wanted their attention: communism.

  And as noted, there is a certain type of psychological make-up that must find solace for the lost and ruined self in a mass movement of lasting world import. And that's just why JWs, communists and leftists of all kinds, Fundys in the religious meaning, some environmentalists, and believe it or not many involved in the animal "rights" movements like Peta, are so hard to budge. And if you ever succede in budging them, they're just as likely to turn into fanatics on the other end of the scale. Thus mass movements are interchangeable.

  It's far easier to take a left wing, foaming at the mouth nut-case and convert them into a right wing, foaming at the mouth nut-case, than in it is to take either one and convert them in to a moderate.

  Interesting study in human abnormal psych.

  Francois
• 

  zev

  while sorting through my feelings on this and other things of late....questions have arisen that i'm not sure what the answers are.

  questions like this, and how is it that SO MANY are duped, and continue to be after all these years?

  why is it that when members of other religions decide to leave, they can, without the terible feelings of guilt, stress, doubt, concern, RAGE, anger, desperateness, and so many other feelings i've experienced of late?

  why is it that we FIGHT to leave the borg? what do we have that others dont that makes it so damn hard?

  just some thoughts from a confused person who has reached his "personal crossroads" and wished the light would change.

  __
  zev
  Now feeling the pain of sitting on the pickets class.
• 

  esther

  zev, you asked a few questions, and I will try to answer them, BUT bear in mind they are my present opinions only.
  

  how is it that SO MANY are duped, and continue to be after all these years?

  
  That is two questions. First, I think that so many are duped because they have lots of questions that the WTS answers with a plausible biblical answer. They stay because it is a requirement of being a Jehovah's witness that when you walk in to the kingdom hall for the first time they have to lose their brain. You know what I mean.

  Next question if

  why is it that when members of other religions decide to leave, they can, without the terible feelings of guilt, Stress, doubt, concern, RAGE, anger, desperateness, and so many other feelings i've experienced of late?

  
  A short answer to that is that the WTS makes the publishers responsible for other peopl's lives, while 'proving' that the GB is their link to God.

  why is it that we FIGHT to leave the borg? what do we have that others dont that makes it so damn hard?

  
  We are kept under mind control in the borg. When questions arise, we are told that Jehovah will put it right in his own time, and we accept that idea. The borg is very good at instilling feelings of guilt when we question the GB. Plus, there is the practise of shunning to contend with. But it is worth the fight to escape.

  esther
  appreciating my freedom
• 

  mommy

  Hey Zev
  The borg really does a good job of convincing doesn't it? Everything is bible based, of course you are so busy looking up the 25 scriptures in a 45 minute talk, most of the time you just take their word for it. Let us not forget that all of our spare time was used in studying for the, meetings, or going in field service. So this left litte time at all for free thought, or extracurricular activities. Also this is just a temporary world they live in. Anyday the big "A" will come and take us all away, so we do not value much in this life, but, the end that the org promises. Our family is expendable, and even our own lives will be given up for the cause, because that is expected(required) of us, in order to get to the "real" life in paradise.

  If you break it down to how much control they actually have over their members, you will not be suprised to see how hard it is to leave. "Learning to live again" that is hard.
  wendy

  PS. I forgot to say "Hey" to the newbies Welcome!
• 

  Loki

  Hey Frontle, sorry if my questions upset you. I was actually asking about something that had been on my mind for a long time, trying to find explanations for what I see as my being duped by the JWs. I don't think it wrong to ask questions about things which I'm concerned about. The Loki I read about was a shape shifter, so could have been a wolf. I have made a lot of shifts in my life to move away from the JW way of thinking into finding my own way of thinking. You also said

  it was just rational people trying to explain things that they didnt understand

  - well now I am rationally trying to understand why I was involved with them. Does that answer any of your "questions"?

  Francoise, you said

  I think there's a lot of truth in the idea that religion is opium for the people. It keeps them insensate, makes 'em docile, keeps 'em from paying proper attention to the competing religion where Marx wanted their attention: communism.

  - thats the way I see it too, because Marx was a politician and his view of things political, and a bit more than a tad left-wing. What you said about fundamentalism makes a lot of sense to me. I know a few people who have left other fundamentalist religions, and they are either involved in another fundamentalist religion, or have very strong political views (left-wing, of course) - funny, but those who stay with the religious thing are politically right-winged [8>]. Never thought about that before, thanks Francoise.

  Thank you Mommy and Thinkers Wife for the welcome, there seems to be some really nice people here.

  Zev, I hope you are feeling less confused now. It can be quite overwhelming leaving the borg, at least it was for me and some others I know. They reach into every aspect of your life, because, as we were told, its not just a religion, its a way of life. But like the "light that keeps getting brighter", the confusion does get dimmer. I guess it just hasn't gone out completely for me yet, but enough for now.

  Take care all
• 

  emyrose

  It is so easy to generalise and make it sound like an educated statement, but it's just another opinion with its own biases. The world and humanity really isnt that simple.

  Hi Frontle, I agree with Larc's evaluation of this rather insightful comment of yours. People tend to stereotype anything that they don't have the time to examine fully. However, I would use the word "analysis" or even "lens" instead of "opinion," for the right connotation. After all, Marx wasn't just your average Joe smosh and his assessment about religion is respected to some degree in the various intellectual worlds. Yes,
  some folks tend to have a one dimensional reality, where things are
  viewed in simplistic ways stemming for a more intellectually romantic
  approach to their existence, imo. Religion may have grown too bitter
  in their reality, in their immediate world. Some are not always aware
  that religion plays different roles in society. It has not simply been a tool solely for evil purposes. Religion has served as an oasis
  for the poor and uneducated in terms of having an place where they
  could experience cultural spirituality among fellows. Others, let it carry cultural and traditional morality for them. Now I am not saying
  that there are no manipulative aspects to this , namely elite control and dominance of the masses. Yet the masses do not set up the structures (only influencing the areas within and in dif. degrees)
  of society and can only exercise a limited amount of power. So naturally, as rational actors within established society, they make use of what is available. We live under hierarchical structures.
  Maybe this may not sound ideal, but societies with enormous populations require it. It is inevitable social bureaucracy within
  our human evil/good reality. So saying that religion is ONLY or MOSTLY a bad thing (like the historical opium catastrophy of Marx's time and world) is to confine oneself to a one dimensional perspective of a very complex and long-existent part of civilization.