Question about Satan being thrown down to earth

by gold_morning 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • gold_morning
    gold_morning

    Hi all,

    I read something and thought some of you might know. Remember Revelation 12:7. There was war in heaven and Micheal and his angels battled the dragon and his angels. Then satan was thrown down to earth and was like a roaring lion.

    Didn't the JW's say that this happened in 1914? I seem to remember they did. Well, I was just reading Luke 10:18 where Jesus himself said: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

    Now if Jesus was tellling his apostles that 2,000 years ago.......how could satan have been thrown out of heaven in 1914. Just curious. Did I remember how they interpeted Revelation right? Does anyone see what I mean?

    Thanks Gold_morning

  • Mysterious
    Mysterious
    Jesus alluded to the future ouster of Satan from heaven as a certainty, saying: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven."?Lu 10:1, 17, 18.

    Insight book under lightning. Apparently according to them it wasn't that he saw it happen it was one of those prophetic devices where you talk as if something has already occured to underline how sure it is to happen.

    Doesn't look like they address it any more clearly than that in any of the publications.

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Prophetic. Their word! As is the whole 1914 generation "unlight."

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Actually, is any one interested in making a class action against god?

    I think that many people will have suffered damaged as a result of A. God's irresponsible release of hazardous materials without testing of consequences or consideration of environmental, health, or social impact.

    Add to that the fact Satan landed on top of my grandmother prize marrow, completely ruining her chances of a best in show rosette at the Agricultural Show...

    ... oh; lightning doesn't fall; it goes UP from the ground to the sky. This is true. Jesus Christ obviously wasn't paying attention when daddy gave him physics lessons...

  • 68storm
    68storm

    Just think about it!....What the h**l was Satan doing all this time in Heaven? What was God thinking letting him roam around on his turf?

    The bible states that Moses was asked to remove his sandals on the mount, because he was stepping on Holy ground. Of course everyone knows that that small piece of earth, would be more sacred then Heaven.

    Most of their nonsense is a joke!

    68storm

  • gumby
    gumby

    Jesus also to his followers to......"keep awake, for you do not know at what hour the master will arrive". He also said in Rev. "look....I am coming quickly, and I will remove your lambstand if you screw up"....(or something like that).

    He said that two thousand years ago. Why would he tell his followers that would soon die and be with him one day, these things? If they would never see these things nor experience them.....why tell them?

    Heres another thing.......Satan messed up bad way back in the garden of Eden........ yet god waits 6 thousand years to kick his ass out! He waits till Jesus takes his rule. I thought Jesus was more of a pacifist than his old man.....yet Jesus is the one to throws Satan out? His old man should have fried him with the rest of the millions he slaughtered in the O.T.

    You will find nowhere in the scriptures of the NT......that god told certain ones to write the NT in the first place. It was man who said, 'all scripture is inspired of god',......not god.

    Gumby

  • Enishi
    Enishi

    A fundamentalist once told me that the gigantic meteor which killed off the dinosaurs was in fact Satan and the demons being thrown out of heaven.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Thr scene is pulled from earlier Jewish literature wherein Michael and underlings fight the forces of evil in heaven ,with Satan losing his place. The battle was under the command of Melchizedek who by that time had become a demigod of sorts outranking all others below YHWH. Judaic angeology was quite well developed by the first century. The book of revelation as a whole oozes with Gnostic and Essene symbolism. The writer(writers as it shows evidence of extensive rearrangement and interpolation) would be quite surprised to see it included in our Catholic Bible.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Good point Abaddon!

    B.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Here are the relevant texts:

    Isaiah 14:12-15

    "How did you come to fall from the heavens, Daystar, son of Dawn? How did you come to be thrown to the ground, you who enslaved the nations? You who used to think to yourself, "I will climb up to the heavens; and higher than the stars of God I will set my throne. I will sit on the Mount of Assembly in the recesses of the north. I will climb to the top of thunderclouds, I will rival the Most High." What! Now you have fallen to Sheol to the very bottom of the abyss!"

    This text comes from a mashal (a parable, allegory found in Hebrew Wisdom books) that satirizes a fallen tyrant, either written by Isaiah himself about a fallen Assyrian king (such as Sargon II or Sennacherib) or by Deutero-Isaiah about Nebuchadnezzer or the fall of the Neo-Babylonian kingdom. From the context, it is clear that a human king is meant, and not a divine being, cf. v. 16: "All who see you will gaze at you, will stare at you, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, and overthrew kingdoms.' " The arrogance shown by the king of Babylon against God is a theme repeated in Jer. 50:29-32 where the Fall of Babylon is similarly linked to arrogance like the Fall of the Daystar. The appelation "Daystar, son of Dawn" (or "Lucifer, son of Dawn" in the Latin Vulgate) however derives from Canaanite traditions about Baal, who was given the epithet "Most High" and whose chariot was at "the top of thunderclouds". The meterological language clearly evokes a challenge to Baal's authority. "Mount of Assembly" is also a common name for the assembly of the gods in Phoenician and Canaanite mythology, and the "recesses of the north" may be a reference to Baal's holy mountain Zephon ("north"), where the conflict between Baal and Yamm took place, Mt. Casius (cf. Ps. 48:3). There may also be some play on Babylonian-Canaanite astrological legends, with Venus ("the Daystar") being Ishtar-Astarte-Anat who slays the enemies of Marduk-Baal; here Isaiah makes Ishtar-Astarte-Anat the enemy of Marduk-Baal.

    Luke 10:18

    He said to them, "I watched Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Yes, I have given you power to tread underfoot serpents and scorpions of the enemy."

    The language is clearly dependent on that of Is. 14:12, the fall being from the heavens and the manner "like lightning" evoking the "thunderclouds" mentioned in Is. 14:13 and Baal's lightning-bolt theopany. The link with Baal is strengthened by the fact that Baal-zebul is identified with Satan in Lk. 11:17-19 as the leader of the demons and Jesus' statement in Lk. 10:18 purports to explain his power over demons in his exorcisms. Jesus is therefore drawing on the same mythological language as Is. 14:12. However it is further developed theologically: the fallen one is no longer identified with a human king but with Satan himself. The contemporaneous identification of Satan with the serpent that tempted Eve (an identificaiton absent in Genesis) is also suggested in Lk. 10:18 with the reference made to treading serpents underfoot, a clear allusion to Gen. 3:15 (e.g. "It will crush your head and you will strike its heel") and Ps. 9:13 ("the serpent you will trample underfoot"). There is one final connection with this passage and Is. 14:12-15. This statement by Jesus closely follows his curse on the cities of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum (Lk. 10:13-14). Regarding Capernaum, Jesus says: "As for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted high as heaven? You shall be thrown down to Hades." This statement is clearly inspired by Is. 14:13-15, both in its reference to being "exalted high as heaven" and being "thrown down to Hades (=Hades)," which in the Greek is a verbatum quote from the LXX of Is. 14:15.

    John 12:31

    "Now sentence is being passed on this world; now the prince of this world is to be overthrown [variant, "cast out"]."

    This passage is a very tenuous parallel to Lk. 10:18. The expression "prince of this world" is a Johannine circumlocation referring to Satan (cf. 1 John 5:19, "the whole world lies in the power of the Evil One"): "I shall now talk with you any longer, because the prince of this world is on his way" (Jn. 14:30), "proved by the prince of this world being already condemned" (Jn. 16:11). The theological outlook however is quite different from that of Luke. In Luke, the fall of Satan from heaven was an event already in the past. For John, Jesus' death would be the event that pronounces the final sentence on the prince of the world (cf. 16:4-16). It is because of this that Jesus is able to declare: "In the world you will have trouble, but be brave -- I have conquered the world" (Jn. 16:33). This thought is made clear by the full context of Jn. 12:31: "Now sentence is being passed on this world; now the prince of this world is to be overthrown. And when I am lifted up from the earth, I shall draw all men to myself." That is, his death breaks Satan's dominion over men. It is this understanding of the Fall of Satan that Paul shares. Col. 1:13 says: "He has taken us out of the power of darkness and created a place for us in the kingdom of the Son." 2 Cor. 4:4 refers to "the unbelievers whose minds the god of this world has blinded, to stop them seeing the light shed by the Good News of the glory of Christ."

    Revelation 12:7-9

    "And now war broke out in heaven, when Michael and his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels, but they were defeated and driven out of heaven. The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil or Satan, who had deceived all the world, was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled with him.

    This explicit description of the Fall of Satan is part of the same late Jewish apocalytic tradition attested in Enochian literature, as suggested particularly by the role of Michael the archangel in the heavenly war. However this tradition itself is rooted in the ancient Chaos conflict myth known variously as the battle of Marduk vs. Tiamat and Baal vs. Lotan/Yamm. There are only echoes of this conflict myth in Is. 14:12-15 (e.g. the reference to the holy mountain of the North, or Zephon, where the battle took place). This conflict myth is more explicitly mentioned in Is. 27:1: "That day, Yahweh will punish, with his hard sword, massive and strong, Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent: he will kill the sea-dragon." Here the language is strikingly identical to that of the Ugarit Baal epic and the name Leviathan is that of the Chaos monster Lotan/Yamm. The reference to "the great dragon, the primeval serpent" in Rev. 12 is clearly rooted in the same conflict myth but updates it to a "war" in heaven between God's army vs. Satan the Devil. Why is Michael leading the fight against the Chaos dragon? 1 Enoch 20:5 possibly gives an answer: "Michael, one of the holy angels, for (he is) obedient in his benevolence set over the best part of mankind and Chaos." The leader of the rebellious angels is named as Semjaza in 6:3 and in 10:11 Michael is given the following command from God: "Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves." This appears to be a partial parallel to the narrative in Rev. 12. There are other indications in the text that the conflict myth lies behind Rev. 12. In Rev. 12:15 the serpent vomits water from his mouth "like a river" which became a sea by v. 18 and 13:1. This is precisely how the Sea forms in the conflict myth, from the body of the chaos monster. Furthermore, in Rev. 12:3, the dragon has seven heads which is exactly the number of heads the chaos monster has in Ugarit/Canaanite myth.

    2 Enoch 29:3-5

    "Here Satanai was hurled from the height, together with his angels. But one from the order of the archangels deviated, together with the division that was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, that he might place his throne higher than the clouds which are above the earth, and that he might become equal in my power. And I hurled him out from the height, together with his angels. And he was flying around in the air, ceaselessly, above the Bottomless. And thus I created the entire heavens. And the third day came."

    This account is from a second-century Jewish apocalyptic book that draws on the same traditions as Revelation. Here the connection with the chaos conflict myth is less explicit. The expulsion of Satanai from heaven is located chronologically in the second day of creation and was the act that itself created the heavens from the earth. This evokes the creation myth of the Enuma Elish where the battle between Tiamat (cognate with Lotan/Yamm in Canaanite myth) and Marduk results in the division of the heavenly waters Apsu from the earth. The mythological language of Rev. 12 ("dragon," "ancient serpent") is also absent, and God himself is the expeller of Satan, not Michael. It is remarkable, however, how much the language in 2 En. 29:3-5 derives from Is. 14:12-15. This is especially the case with Satan placing "his throne higher than the clouds" which evokes that of the Daystar (=Lucifer) climbing "to the top of the thunderclouds" in Is 14:13. This further develops the idea, found in later Christian writings, that the Lucifier in Is. 14 is the same person as Satan the Devil. The later pseudepigraphal Book of John the Evangelist (written c. 500-600), in fact, alludes to Is. 14 with language that blends it with that of 2 Enoch: "And he saw the glory of him that moveth the heavens, and he thought to set his seat above the clouds of heaven and desired to be like unto the Most High."

    I hope this helps!

    Leolaia

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