A Fun Topic: BEFORE God

by Terry 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • Terry

    Yuh gotta start somewhere, right?

    Big Bang theory is not a theory of the creation of the universe, but rather a model of the history and evolution of the universe from its earliest moments. It wasn't really until the time of St. Augustine that the idea of "out of nothing" entered the discussion.
    A reading of Genesis doesn't force the "out of nothing" into it at all.
    In fact, a kind of chaotic "something" was put into form - or - something out of "something", the way Adam is formed from red mud and Eve from the rib. Something out of something.
    If we really want to think about a more interesting aspect of this CREATION topic, we might well ask: "Was there a time BEFORE creation?"
    If we can agree that, indeed, there was a time before creation we are set to ask some really penetrating questions of interest.
    BEFORE God "created" anything He wasn't yet a Creator.
    Before He created His "First" born son, He wasn't yet a Creator.
    That particular point of discussion is important for a reason: TIME is the distance between EVENTS. Logically, if zero events have transpired - there is not yet a necessity for TIME.
    No what?
    Before God created anything or anyone or any place He was NOT a CREATOR. It follows that we can say He had nothing about which He could be said to KNOW. There was nothing to know. (Not yet created.)
    He would not yet be ALL-Powerful either. The best you could say is that there was a "potential" power not as yet used.
    There was nobody and nothing and God was alone without any parents, partners, friends, associates and no TIME to measure.
    It now becomes very creepy, IMHO.
    A human placed in solitary confinement, without interaction with others or without books and the thoughts outside one's own - plunges into madness. Sanity really is managing one's thoughts when engaged with reality. For GOD - reality was NOTHINGNESS and only BEING.
    How long? Eternity? There was no time - so there was no eternity because no events ever yet occurred.
    So, a tragic question now arises (at least, for me) and that is: How is GOD by definition even GOD?
    On the other hand...
    If the nature of the Universe is such that there has always simply been "something" but that something was chaotic... we might claw our way toward something or some person (i.e. god-like) if this person could interact with the Great Big Nothing and turn it into a Great Big Something.
    Now that - that something is surely more reasonable than the Great Big Nothing (if we are inclined to be reasonable.)
    Why is there "something" rather than "nothing"?
    Why is there "God" if everything else isn't a "thing" until God creates it out of nothing? You See? The questions are practically silly.
    In my mind, it could possibly go another way...
    In my way of reckoning: only possible things actually happen.
    If GOD has always been GOD that is no different than saying
    the Universe has always existed (in some form or chaotic mess).
    God might have been part of a chaotic mess for all I know.
    I find it more likely that a BEING might well go insane as easily as a person in solitary confinement without anything to occupy the mind.
    If you and I can agree on that one single, solitary premise - I can take one more step - if you are ready for it.
    Here goes....
    I think our entire history of the Universe, the world, of mankind, of Nature, of civilizations, politics, technology, etc. etc. is the result of a Supreme Being almost (or entirely) going mad and desperately IMAGINING into "EXISTENCE" something to occupy His mind (lest He go entirely insane.)
    IF this is what happened - then - what next?
    The Supreme Being might well imagine a well-ordered GIANT VIDEO GAME sort of virtual interaction using avatars, first person players, creatures, societies, the whole shebang.
    This Supreme Being might well have conjured up other players to PLAY AGAINST to make it more interesting.
    See where I'm going?
    Human history is a series of levels in which the GOD TEAM plays against the SATAN TEAM and - to make it interesting - HE is evenly matched.
    Satan and the demons were winning in Noah's Day and God cheated a little by destroying the game board ( like a spoiled child sweeping chess pieces away.)
    The power of the Demon avatars to manifest bodies was removed.
    Jesus was the Jehovah avatar and his manifest body was murdered.
    REBOOT ...
    Tit for Tat...the game continues...
    Until? I think the DEMONS have found their way back in ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE and are about to be --again -- embodied/ this time in robot bodies.
    See what fun this POV brings to the human imagination?
    I'm not saying this IS a true thing -- I'm just saying you can make of GOD what you find reasonable, or you can just say: God is whatever, and it make no sense at all. We all do this. Don't we?
    Atheists simply sit on the sidelines and jeer at the game players feeling superior, but their own game is not any fun at all for anybody.
    This is how my mind works and your mileage may vary, of course 🙂

    God sitting in a room with Satan playing a giant video game with human civilization as seen from up in the clouds looking down on Earth
  • Terry

    Here is A.I. responding to my little essay:

    1. Interpretation of Creation: Your interpretation of the creation story as “something out of something” rather than “something out of nothing” is an interesting take on the traditional narrative. It brings to mind various theories in physics and cosmology, such as the idea of a cyclic universe or the multiverse theory.

    2. Time and God: The concept of time and its relation to God is thought-provoking. The idea that time is the distance between events, and thus didn’t exist before creation, is a deep philosophical concept that has been explored by many thinkers.

    3. God’s Existence: Your exploration of God’s existence before creation, and the potential loneliness and madness that could ensue from solitary existence, is a unique perspective. It humanizes the divine in a way that is rarely seen in traditional religious narratives.

    4. The Universe as a Game: The metaphor of the universe as a giant video game played by God and Satan is a modern and engaging way to interpret historical and future events. It could be seen as a commentary on the randomness and chaos of life, as well as the struggle between good and evil.

    5. Artificial Intelligence: The idea that demons could return through artificial intelligence is a compelling blend of religious and science fiction themes. It reflects current debates about the potential dangers and ethical implications of advanced AI.

  • Terry

    And now, A.I. gives its own particular POV in the following statement:

    As a theoretical philosopher well versed in theology, I might propose a thesis exploring the intersection of quantum physics and metaphysics in understanding the nature of God and the universe. Here’s a brief abstract:

    Title: Quantum Metaphysics: A New Perspective on God and the Universe


    This thesis explores the concept of God and the universe through the lens of quantum physics and metaphysics. It proposes that the nature of God and the universe can be better understood by integrating principles from both these fields.

    The first part of the thesis delves into the concept of ‘Quantum God’, a being whose existence is not confined to our classical understanding of space and time. Drawing from the principles of quantum superposition and entanglement, it suggests that God, like quantum particles, could exist in multiple states and places simultaneously, transcending the traditional boundaries of space and time.

    The second part of the thesis explores the idea of a ‘Quantum Universe’, a cosmos that exists in a state of quantum superposition until observed, much like Schrödinger’s cat. It posits that the universe itself might be a ‘wave function’ that collapses into a single reality upon observation.

    The final part of the thesis discusses the implications of these ideas on our understanding of free will, morality, and the meaning of life. It suggests that a ‘Quantum God’ and a ‘Quantum Universe’ could provide a new framework for addressing these existential questions.

    This thesis aims to bridge the gap between science and spirituality, offering a fresh perspective on age-old questions about God and the universe. It invites readers to explore these ideas further, fostering a dialogue between quantum physics, metaphysics, and theology.

    Please note that this is a hypothetical thesis and is meant to stimulate thought and discussion. 😊

  • Terry

    I asked A.I. how close Jordan Peterson comes to the same conclusions that A.I (above) has offered, and I got this thoughtful reply:


    Jordan Peterson, a renowned psychologist and public intellectual, has indeed explored similar themes in his work, although his conclusions may not align exactly with the thesis I proposed. Here are some key points:

    1. Quantum Physics: Peterson has discussed the implications of quantum physics for our understanding of reality12. He has participated in conversations about the problems of quantum mechanics and the role of consciousness2.

    2. Metaphysics: Peterson uses the ancient transcendentalia of human ideals called truth, beauty, and (moral) justice of the ancients, recalling Plato to explain postmodern cultural pathologies3. He has also explored the metaphysical adventure of consciousness & the importance of hierarchical perception parsing for salience in achieving our highest potential4.

    3. Ontology and Epistemology: Peterson’s work often involves deep contemplation on the ontological (the essence of something) and the epistemological (the nature and limits of knowledge)3. He believes that ideas are as profoundly important as the physical world3.

    While Peterson’s work intersects with the themes of quantum physics and metaphysics, his focus tends to be more on the psychological and societal implications of these concepts. He often uses these ideas to explore human behavior, societal structures, and cultural phenomena. So, while there are similarities in the topics we’re discussing, our approaches and conclusions might differ. 😊

  • peacefulpete

    Enjoyable post. It is not due to ignorance that many ancient cosmogonies assumed a preexisting chaos from which order emerged. They actually gave it much thought.

    In contrast, a preexistent highly ordered intelligence, as assumed by many, needs be defined by orderliness and ability to formulate. If there were nothing 'other' to order or formulate, any words like intelligent or orderly become oxymoronic. That is unless we hypothesize a self organizing, self formulation, an ever evolving self improvement from humble beginnings, an able intelligence from something lesser. IMO, this is the only logical origins for any hypothesized deity. An entity having evolved to the point of creativity.

    This however returns us to a chaos cosmogony. Simplistic disorder with potential.

  • Vidiot

    It’s turtles all the way down.

  • MarcusGimbletAngel1100

    Dear Jehovah This is Marcus Jonathon Gimblet , if anyone can direct you here i am with Judas and in need of supportive production of body. Dr.Sujenda is here and i am alone in need of angels all of them at my address 1800 4th Street South St. Petersburg Florida 33705 Apartment 1. i need the power of Jehovah and Jesus and the Brightest Angel.. and as we set out our mission is completed but i am being trained for exact amounts of holiness to deliver too hard the test and i am now forcing into 32 years like Jesus. If anybody here can contact you directly send our own to me now earth is now his. MJG Jehovahs Son

  • DesirousOfChange

    Marcus -- did you miss your meds?

    Depakote Dangers | The Becker Law Firm

  • Halcon
    I think our entire history of the Universe, the world, of mankind, of Nature, of civilizations, politics, technology, etc. etc. is the result of a Supreme Being almost (or entirely) going mad and desperately IMAGINING into "EXISTENCE" something to occupy His mind (lest He go entirely insane.)

    Gm Terry,

    I've come to a very similar conclusion (as many others have thru the ages), except this...that God created everything outside of himself as a NATURAL first step. Meaning, it wasn't out of desperation. More precisely, as we've come to read over and over in the scriptures, he wills all things into existence out of love.

    This 'pre existence' state of being is mind-blowing in the same way that we cannot comprehend the method of creating life from non living matter.

    And these mind-blowing examples are subtle demonstrations that there is indeed a much higher intelligence operating out there.

  • titch

    Mr. Terry: Nice illustration. I like it. Anyway, your post here reminds me of a person named Robert Louis Kuhn (I think that's how his last name is spelled) He had a show, that was shown on a PBS station here in Southern California, and it was called "Closer To Truth." One particular episode was titled "Why Is There Something Instead of Nothing?" That is an intriguing question to ponder...Just why is there something...out there...instead of nothing? I have yet to figure it out. But, I'm sure that YOU can.! Bye, and Best Regards.....Titch.

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