Daniel was wrong about the fate of the King of the North…..and so is the WT & others

by deegee 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • deegee

    The king of the north, that is, the king of the country geographically located north of Judea/Palestine was identified by the actual events of history as the Seleucids of Syria, in particular, the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

    The king of the south, that is, the king of the country geographically located south of Judea/Palestine was identified by the actual events of history as the Ptolemies of Egypt.

    Daniel 11:40-45 prophesied that Antiochus (king of the north) would make war once again against Egypt, and would die on the coast of Palestine “between the sea and the holy mountain”. This event did not happen: there was no third war and Antiochus (king of the north) did not die in Palestine, he died in Persia. This is a failed prophecy by Daniel.

    The prediction concerning Antiochus’ (king of the north) final battle and place of death in Palestine (Daniel 11:45) was inaccurate, and so we know that this "prophecy" was completed before the news of his death in Persia in late 164 BCE reached Jerusalem.

    The failed prophecy of Daniel 11:40-45 is one of the giveaways that the book of Daniel was completed before 164 BCE, during the Maccabean period and that the author of Daniel was writing history and not prophecy.

    The author of Daniel also claimed that the end of history would occur after the death of Antiochus (king of the north) in Palestine. This also did not happen.

    The WT however claims that the identity of the king of the north will be changing over time. They also claim that the king of the north is the same as "Gog of Magog" in Ezekiel. Others have claimed that China is a more plausible contender for the position than Russia and there are other theories such as Christianity vs Islam, neoNazism etc.

    Where in Daniel 11 does it state that the identity of the king of the north will be changing over time and that this king is the same as "Gog of Magog" in Ezekiel?

    Where in Daniel 11 does it state that the king of the north will be China, Islam or neoNazism?

  • Bungi Bill
    Bungi Bill
    there was no third war

    But I thought there were a total of six wars fought between the Ptolemaic and Seleucid dynasties, not two? Collectively, these are known to historians as the "Syrian Wars", and took place between 274 and 168 BC.

  • deegee


    Is the total of the six wars fought between the Ptolemaic and Seleucid dynasties mentioned in Daniel?

    How many wars between the two dynasties does Daniel mention?

  • Crazyguy

    I read recently that in the Dead Sea scrolls they found writings where people of that time were also playing around with the numbers of Daniel and reinterpreting them to fit a time line closer to theirs and that how they came up with the idea that another messiah would come about 1 ce.

    So john Aquila Brown and the millerites weren’t the first to play with the numbers

  • Bungi Bill
    Bungi Bill

    In other words the number of wars fought between the "King of the North and King of the South", as described in the bible book of Daniel, differs significantly from the actual number that were fought between the Greek dynasties in Syria and Egypt.

    I guess that's what happens when you are dealing with a collection of Middle Eastern fairy tales!

  • deegee
  • deegee


  • deegee

    Problems posting.


    Sorry, I should have provided more details, I was trying to make my OP as brief and to the point as possible.

    The "no third war" refers to the wars specifically led by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Seleucid king of Syria, against Egypt and do not include those fought by his predecessors.

    Daniel accurately referred to two campaigns which Antiochus IV Epiphanes led against Egypt. Daniel then made an intelligent guess based on Antiochus IV Epiphanes' military successes and predicted that Antiochus IV Epiphanes would invade Egypt a third time, conquer it and revel in its riches. It is this third war that did not happen.

    To your point about the total 6 wars between the Ptolemaic and Seleucid dynasties:

    The following source compares actual history with the so-called "prophecies" in Daniel 11 regarding the wars between the dynasties. It provides a good comparison but doesn't state whether Daniel failed to mention any of the wars which actually occurred according to history. I will have to research that further:



  • Phizzy

    You could call the Book of Daniel a fraud, as it pretends to be prophecy written centuries earlier than the time of Antiochus 1V. But I guess the readers of the time were familiar with the genre, so knew it was a Political Tract for their time.

    I guess the writer thought he was on a winner with his prophecy about old Ant's 3rd war, but then Ant went and snuffed it. Just goes to show, the old adage is true " A Week is a long time in Politics".

    No actual prophecy, real genuine prediction, not as above, that is to be found in the Bible has ever come true in the terms written.

  • Bobcat


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